Ep67 Addiction Treatment Risks of Influencer-led Kratom Use

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley (he/him): Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing Addiction Treatment Professionals around the world. I'm your host Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest, Ryan Foltz.

Ryan is the Peer Recovery Coach for Pathfinder Recovery. Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, Ryan. It's so good to have you with us today.

Great to be here. Glad to finally sit down.

Yeah, definitely. we first met, quite a while ago, so it's really great that we've had the opportunity to do this today.

And obviously you've, been doing quite a lot of exciting work since we last spoke as well. But, first of all, Ryan, could you tell us about yourself and your journey to becoming the recovery worker at Pathfinder Recovery?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): Absolutely. my name is Ryan Foltz. I currently live in the Boston, Massachusetts area with my wife and our two children. I grew up in Knoxville, Tennessee and had a pretty normal childhood. Started experimenting with substances, probably school. I was in bands. I was in the music kind of seen, and struggled pretty heavily, with substances until, I first sought treatment in my late twenties.

I was and out for about two and a half, three years, until I met my wife, actually in Nashville, Tennessee and moved to Boston, was still struggling. We found out that my wife was pregnant with my daughter. That's what it took for me. I got into recovery on an outpatient basis and never looked back. and that was in 2019.

From there, I actually was a stay at home dad for a while and was kind of struggling with my purpose and what I wanted to do after working in music for so long. I didn't know if I was gonna be able to go back to that because I burned all the bridges, and I had friends always tell me, "Hey, I think you'd be great at working with people in the addiction recovery space. And I was like, "I don't know," but then I went and I took a CCAR class, and I absolutely fell in love with it, and are.

Chris Langley (he/him): Wow. thank you very much for sharing that, Ryan. what, so what, What do you enjoy most about your role? Because this is quite, I wouldn't say it's new for you, but this is one of your first roles in, helping people in within recovery. What is it you most enjoy about your role so far?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): I think it's meeting all the different types of people, especially because we're a virtual program. I'm seeing people from all sorts of different places, and it's really great to watch their journey, from the beginning, whether they've done our inhome withdrawal management program or if they've come from another facility, I'm able to see like them set these goals early on and then watch them achieve them, and it's really fun to be a part of.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yep. Yep. so when did you start working with, Pathfinder Recovery?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): Pathfinder. I started, I believe it was June of this year.

Was really when we started getting going.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yep. Yeah, it's amazing It's amazing. We had both your, bosses on the podcast, last month, and it was amazing to hear the great work that you are doing and what you are creating as well as a, service is very unique. I've done 66 of these podcasts before and I've never come across a service as such.

Huge scope and potential as well for your reach. It's quite something what you are building for sure. It really is. I'd suggest anyone listening to this podcast to go and check out, the podcast we did before with, with Ryan's managers. Absolutely. Obviously there's a lot of things you enjoy about your role, Ryan, but so what, are the, some of the challenges that you've faced since you've started your role?

What are the things that you know, you find most difficult?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): A big challenge, I think, at least in the industry as a whole is, Recovery Coaching and peer support? Peer support, not as much, but recovery coaching specifically is a pretty new thing to healthcare. So it's one of the newer roles and it's understanding like what we do, because we're not a therapist, we're not a sponsor. So I think really being able to stay in our lanes. That's a big thing that we learn, and keeping it to what we're doing, setting goals, helping them with, showing them that we've been there and using our lived experience to help them and guide them through their recovery.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yeah. It must be a huge relief for someone that's starting to, engage with a service such as yours to find someone with lived experience as well, and someone there to support them on their initial journey to within recovery. It's an amazing thing to do, Ryan. It really is.

Lots of people in recovery might want to go into this as a career. So what would you say to someone who is considering being a, recovery worker or a recovery coach who is now in recovery, but what would you say to them to do?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): I would tell them, because this is true for at least I know our state and a couple others, to get your state certification. If I would go and take Recovery Coach Academy from CCAR because that gives you just the basics and what being a peer support recovery coach looks like.

And you'll find out if it's something that you're going to like. You get to meet other people that have either are already in, space and working in these roles, and also people just like you that are just trying to see if it's something they're interested in.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yep. Yep, definitely. Most definitely. when we first met Ryan, you mentioned to me that alcohol use is sometimes forgotten as a problem because we've got other major issues around the world now, obviously with the fentanyl crisis and the opioid crisis going on, but can you tell me why you think the alcohol use has maybe been increasing, and what are your main concerns about how this is being treated?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): So

I think.

It's very, it depends on a lot of factors, like for me, I can speak for myself. I grew up in the south where it was very much it. Normal, almost expected that you drink, always tell this I always tell story. Sticks with me so much, that I remember seeing a t-shirt as a kid at the mall in Knoxville that said, Knoxville, Tennessee, a drinking town with a football problem. And that always stuck with me. So it was one of those things like, oh, when I'm an adult, like I'm supposed to drink, this is what I'm supposed to do. And because it is so socially accepted, I think that makes it very difficult. 'cause I know, especially for me personally, saw so many people around me drinking the way that I was like. I have a problem, but the difference was is I was not functional. and,

Okay.

Functioning in, in a capacity to which I could live my life. and, but I think in a, good, on a good note, I do think younger, the younger generation is actually drinking less than previous generations, which I think is a positive trend.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yeah, I've read about that as well. obviously I'm British and, I keep quite a close eye on this and they've, they have been saying this generation is, drinking less and using less drugs as well. So something's working, it is quite interesting how generationally these things can shift.

That's, for sure. That is for sure. one of the things I did want to touch on, before when we had our pre podcast call, Ryan, you mentioned that some of your concerns are the, with these new online influences that seem to have just taken hold. And, some of these influences are claiming to be experts in addiction recovery. On this podcast, I've discussed this before with, a lady who was in Las Vegas because there's obviously a problem with, clients attending therapy sessions and claiming they've been diagnosed with a certain condition what would you say some of the big risks around having on online influences is and the potential damage they can do could be quite, substantial, would you say?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): Yeah, so I, think in, today's age, just with the internet in general, the Internet's scary and dangerous place. Anybody can go on there and say what they want. and, it, I've seen some wild claims, on the internet, but, I've also seen creators, create communities, whether in the, 12th step group base or they're in the harm reduction space. They're creating these communities that, really great. it's, there's a balance to it. I think, the I think the main thing is just be careful be careful.

To on the internet and make sure to speak to your medical provider.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yeah. That's great advice. That's for sure. 'cause it does seem to be a certain issue that's on the rise and I completely agree with you about. Creating, communities around to help people within recovery. I just think there's sometimes with these influences, they, have influence.

That's, the, name of the game, but it's just amazing to see the effects it can have and, the potential damage, but also the good it can do as well. So I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to, criticize this too much, but it does, concern me as well.

obviously with the rise of what's going on, but, yeah, definitely. Thank you for that, Ryan. one of the other drugs that you mentioned when we first met was kratom, and this is something I've not come across too much before. And, what would you say are the biggest risks of create and how does it affect someone who's using it on a potentially regular basis?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): So I think what's really scary about kratom is just that it is available just at the store and going a little bit back into, What we were talking about with the influencers, there's a lot of people online that are pushing it as, like a harm reduction method. which all for harm reduction, but, it can be dangerous because it seems like it's

It seems like it's.

Something you can buy over the counter.

So it couldn't be that bad. But I think what we're seeing a lot of now they've moved kratom and they found the synthetic. They've made these synthetic pills out of the active ingredient in kratom, like I think called 7 0 8 or seven. Oh, and I've seen a lot of stuff online about people having pretty. Terrible withdrawals from the stuff and getting pretty physically dependent. again, I'm not sure on the science behind it, but I do know that I've seen an increasing amount of, struggles with those substances. So it's a dangerous lie.

Chris Langley (he/him): So has this kind of been something newly developed? Is this something that's beginning to grow in popularity, would you say? you said it's accessed, openly over the counter as well, so.

Ryan Foltz (he/him): it cause more problems  They've basically put it into tablets now

that you can buy at, like smoke shops and stuff.

Okay.

And I get they're synthesizing it. I'm, again, I'm not sure on the science of it, but it is, it seems to be a pretty dangerous, Substance. I know there's, whole organizations out there that are actually, that I believe actually Eliza met with some last week.

all for this seven oh, synthetic kratom type

Chris Langley (he/him): I get it. I get it. I understand. 'cause in, in the UK we had a very similar problem back in, I dunno, 2005, where we had legal hires where all these synthetic drugs were suddenly on the market openly. And it just caused huge problems. I think we had, I think the synthetic, cannabis was the biggest problem we have, and it's still a problem in prisons today.

It's, really frightening stuff. Some of this stuff with the chemicals, so it's just added to plants and it's just called a, synthetic drug. It's just, it's absurd.

Ryan Foltz (he/him): It's, and it's not new because

they've been there.

Yep.

And it's, scary stuff.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yep. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. with the opioid crisis growing at an alarming rate, can you tell us what's happening in your state and, what is your state doing to reduce the crisis, would you say? Are they doing some good work to alleviate what's going on, would you say ?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): So I think there are a lot of resources. I, like I said, I am in the Boston area. there is such a huge need here. don't know if you've heard of it, but we have a section of downtown Boston, that is, has been dubbed Methadone Mile. And it is basically, it's, I don't know if if you're familiar with Kensington in Philadelphia, but very similar to that.

not quite as bad, because they've done some removals and stuff like that, but it's just such a

It's just a.

Where are we putting these people? How are we helping them? Especially when all of those services are centralized in that area. That's if, you don't have transportation and you're unhoused, like you have to go down there to get your methadone if you're on an MAT. and it's just, it's, a bigger problem of can we really do to help and where do we, put some of these people?

Chris Langley (he/him): So there's been a long, an ongoing problem within Boston, within this certain area, like you said, similar to Kensington in Philadelphia. That's the kind of, not epicenter, but the central location of problematic, drug.

Ryan Foltz (he/him): Yes. it's everywhere. It's now it is, it's spread out, because they've removed tents and stuff from that area. But I'm not originally from here, but from my understanding, there was a closing of a bridge that went out to a small island. to Boston that had all of these services. so people were going there to get these services and it wasn't causing as many issues. But the minute that bridge shut down, all of those services had to be put somewhere else, and they

I see.

Put 'em smack dab in the middle of downtown Boston.

Chris Langley (he/him): So it just centralized everything. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That makes complete sense. couple more questions right now. With the unfortunate and ongoing problem with public stigma of addiction, which is something I always touch on in these podcasts. what is it that makes accessing service such as Pathfinder Recovery so difficult for some people because of this, the stigma attached with addiction or, mental health trauma.

Ryan Foltz (he/him): So for me, at least in my opinion, I think that And as a Pathfinder, I feel like there's a little bit less of the stigma Because, to go anywhere. I think like, oh, if I go to an AA meeting, if I go to, outpatient IOP and I'm seeing walking into this place, what are people gonna think?

But that's one of the main reasons that. That they created Pathfinder Recovery so you could get this treatment from at home. And that's one of the biggest

Biggest feedback from, from clients is they'll say, I'll say, so you know, what

what makes you feel? Is there is there anything you

you need from me? Feel comfortable. Like, no, I'm at home. This is fantastic. I feel so much more comfortable here having to leave my home.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yeah. It's such a unique service that you've, that you are developing. It's, it's, really is something else. could you just tell our listeners a little bit about Pathfinder Recovery and how it works and how it, in case someone hasn't heard the, podcast that we did before?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): Yeah. so we are a completely virtual program. we offer withdrawal

Management from your home. and and also our detox or withdrawal management management. 28 days. so during that time you'll have medical check-ins for the first week, coaching for the first, for the first first week,

and and almost almost every day you'll have.

With somebody and especially medical, the withdrawal management period. And then after that, we're not just gonna be like, okay, you're medically detoxed, you're on your own. we want to give you, people the people for that for that and at least

at. To speak with a clinician or recovery coaches, and also the doctor to make sure there's not any issues ongoing from after the detox.

what we found is most people want to continue after that and keep seeing our therapist and our recovery coaches and, having that long-term support at home. can be a lot. A lot easier for people. A lot of people who have very busy work schedules or have kids at home and they can't go to an IOP five nights a week, or they can't, go into therapy,

Yeah.

Because of the availability.

Yeah.

We also offer, some outpatient, we can also, we can do a

Do a lot of things. Carte as well,

Yeah.

Because we wanna customize your program the best for you because nobody's recovery is the same, I think that's a big problem, that we treat everything as, one way, but e everybody's different. People need different supports. we've had people that started with peer support and then they needed more like breath work, yoga and holistic stuff. So they moved over to, one of our amazing practitioners, Meg, who's who, it's, it's changed everything, so it's, it's it's really great to, of a, program that truly tries to make. Make everybody's program fit their life yeah.

Sense for them.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yeah, it's a very unique program. it really is. I would suggest to anyone to, to go to their website, to, to check it out for sure. and in, I just asked about stigma and you, are reducing stigma by how your program is offered as well. that's, huge.

It really, and, congratulations to you and the team. it's wonderful to hear the great work that you're all doing. It really is.

Ryan Foltz (he/him): Thank you. Thank you.

Chris Langley (he/him): It, really is. It's, amazing. I, love it. last couple of questions, Ryan, 'cause I ask all my guests and 'cause I get some really interesting and varied answers and, but can you tell me what your opinion of harm reduction is and how it can play such a role within, recovery?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): I am a i'm a huge reduction advocate. Advocate i'm a firm firm leader. It's, a fact. Like you can't recovery. If you're not with us anymore. Yeah. And for for me it it took while I I didn't get on MAT, and successfully transitioned, but, that's a big part of my story and think I think it's. For us to meet people where they are, to give them the time they need to find recovery. 'cause if I hadn't, if I had just given up, I wouldn't be here today.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely, thank you for that. last question. Do you have a message for anyone who's listened to this podcast, who's going through an addiction, what would you like to say to them?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): don't give up. I, I I remember last program, I I was

in, like a

a p

my therapist, had I just turned, I was feeling some type of way about it 'cause I was 30 and I had nothing going on and all this, and my friends were getting married and and in your wildest dreams in five, what, where would you be?

I said, I'd be married with a family I I never thought it would be possible.

Enough, on by my 35th birthday, I had a, daughter and a wife and I was in recovery. the main thing I would say is just don't give up.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yeah. Yeah. thank you so much, for sharing that with us, Ryan, and sharing your story. It's, this is gonna be inspiring for anyone who is going through recovery themselves, who's listened to this podcast. it's always lovely for me to hear these stories of how people have just. Gone through it themselves and now are just doing some amazing work for their communities and potentially the whole country now with what's happening with Pathfinder Recovery.

this, whole program can, just keep growing and growing It. There's it really is amazing. And,

amazing.

It's, been lovely talking to you today.

Can you tell our listeners how to best to contact you and to find, Pathfinder Recovery online?

Ryan Foltz (he/him): Yes, probably the best place to go would be our website, which is www.pathfinder-recovery.com. there you can get in touch with admissions, and they can take it from there. You can also find out more information about our program as well.

Chris Langley (he/him): Yep. I suggest anyone go and check it out. That's for sure. Ryan, thank you so much again for your time. I've kept you enough, you've got a lot of great work to be getting on with, but, no. Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you today. Thank you so much.

Ryan Foltz (he/him): Oh, thank you so much for having me. It was great.

Chris Langley (he/him): Really appreciate it. Thanks, Ryan.