Ep64 Addiction Treatment Autism and Intimacy Behaviors

Ep64 Addiction Treatment Autism and Intimacy Behaviors

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Hi, welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest, Megan MacKay, who is the Founder of Interstate Healing and Recovery, and is based in Montana. Megan is a certified sex addiction therapist and a certified licensed clinical professional counselor in the States of Arizona and Montana, and an MDR trained psychotherapist. Megan is also a certified clinical mental health counselor at Trapper Creek Jobs, jobs court, and a board member of Returning Youth Initiative. Welcome to the Addiction Place Podcast, Megan, it's so good to have you with us today.

You

really appreciate it. so we're just, so we're just gonna start off first. So can you tell us about yourself, your career and how you started? What, the great work that you're doing in Montana

It depends on how far back you want to go. I am

that's entirely up to you.

I had a very different life before. I became a therapist. I've probably lived a good, three or four different life. and so what got me into therapy was a personal experience with addiction and trauma as a matter of fact. so I was in my thirties and. I was a chemist. I had gotten into medical school and I was a couple years in when it got the worst.

and I went through my own recovery journey and at the end of it I decided I want, wanted to give back to others. I won't get into the details of that because, I

Yeah.

my story and I talk about it all the time, but that's not what we're here for. So counseling came along as a way, I was looking at psychology versus counseling, and I wanted a more like holistic one-on-one pers career.

In talking to people, I know that there's counseling psychologists, but then counselors themselves have perspective of, the psychologists use the medical model and counselors use a, inclusive model. And that was what kind of me, Lean more towards counseling as a field versus psychology.

I didn't wanna just test people and

and diagnose ' em.

I went to talk to them and work with 'em and learn, actually resolve. Their trauma, and help them to gain recovery to, maintain a new lifestyle and develop these insights I had already back then. so I started from the ground up. I had already had a near doctorate degree and I went back and I finished an Associate's in Addiction and it was the best decision I ever made.

throughout my counseling career, taking opportunities and steps up in order to, the best training I could, and I got, eventually earned my EMDR certification. I had found that co cognitive behavioral DBT didn't really resolve what in terms of Complex PSD, major addictions, compulsive behavior.

People were just put on medications for. and so I kept searching and kept. getting, higher level positions and I kept, looking for opportunities. I kept meeting people and been working over time. I had, earned a position over at the Meadows, which was one of my favorite positions. And, in terms of, I don't want to talk a lot about it.

They're exposed there to a new D and different. Types of therapies is where I earned my, CSAT certification, sexual addiction and post induction therapy, and brought a lot of insight and kind of a whole new world and of therapy and treatment models, and a lot about intimacy disorders. It goes into attachment theory.

It goes into compulsive behavior. And why, people do what they do in relationships or never do in relationships. it talked about developmental trauma, why we become who we are and how and why we respond to things like we do. And that knowledge gives you power to about it. And it was, it, was a turning point.

Like I was introduced to, personally, Dr. Peter Levine's work, Steven Porges work, and I just kept seeking out, more training and more information to the point that I got. I am getting trained in, somatic experiencing. I've got our certifications already, but that's probably my favorite so far.

And I had the Dr. Porges and currently, somebody who he had introduced me to, which is, a very, powerful therapist I work in conjunction with. And so I basically have a really good network of people who are very passionate about what they do. And. keep moving forward and pioneering new facets of the field I was in.

the compulsive behavior stuff is pretty easy. I'm starting to develop treatment things into, like professional training courses, chapters of books. Eventually I'll have my own like workbook, in terms of autism and intimacy behaviors, so a little more specialized niche.

Oh, goodness me. How long, has this, whole journey taken up to the point now, Meghan? Because you've done an extensive amount of research and work and training and qualifications. How long has this been going? How long have you been doing this for?

Since 2016.

Wow. So less than, 10 years. And you've achieved all of this. My goodness me. that's incredible. That really is. congratulations, first of all on, the, recovery and thrown yourself fully into this. that, that's quite impressive what you just listed off the last question.

So thank you so much for that. you obviously work with people who are experiencing many different kinds of addictions, so can you tell us about the work and who you help in your community and online?

A lot of times it's like my primary population right now because I have a very slowed, my private clientele has to do with, intimacy disorders and compulsive behaviors. I am a trauma therapist for a men's recovery ranch and we have are between six and 10, clients.

On a weekly basis. I have a couple of, individuals that I, do see, but I keep very limited. I do work full time for, a Job Corps and the young adult population.

Yeah. you, just mentioned Jobs Corp. 'cause you, you have your own practice, obviously Meghan, but you work for Returning Work Initiative and Job Corp. Can you tell us about the vital work that you do for both of these organizations? It sounds really interesting.

Yeah. Jobs Corp is a training facility that is federally funded, takes young adults. And, gives some training in a variety of fields. We have nine here, including electrical maintenance. I'm still waking up, sorry, my brain's.

it's okay. Getting online, painting, mason carpentry and stuff like that. And so the. Young adults between 16 and 24 have these opportunities to build lives. And a lot of them are, from economically, disadvantage backgrounds. And so that brings in a lot of struggles oftentimes that haven't trust that they haven't been able us.

So we get a lot of people from, rough names. From Brooklyn Lee and with, some sort of neurodivergency, some usually some sort of trauma in the background. usually using maladaptive coping behaviors of some kind like to, because that's how they learn to cope and get by. the Returning Youth initiative and the, board that for the, that's local, those are volunteer.

Positions and so kinda help govern the direction of them, but it's, not a paid position.

So with the returning work initiative, Megan, so someone comes in to get trained to be an electrician or a trade, but then you are there to help with, Helping them with their addictions and their, mental health issues as well. So that's, quite an interesting angle that someone's there to actually deal with that as well.

So someone can come in to help for, a job, but then also get help around their, health as well. That's, very impressive. How's, it must be a very successful program given the amount of support.

Job Corps and Absolutely is. It's, such a vital part of our community. And when we have a graduate, they're immediately like, put into the community and they become part of the workforce and develop, a better. Quality of life because of that. And so I'm hoping to give them a bit of help in terms of self-growth when it comes to having that access.

mental health is really expensive. and quality of mental health is, everybody out there in this field, does really good work. But the more training you get the more expensive it becomes.

That must be incredibly rewarding to work with that, group of young people as well. To see them grow and see them with, working through their careers and their training. They, you are there to help them. That must be amazingly rewarding for you.

Yeah. That's amazing. We're all here for the kids.

Yep. Yep, that's right. That's right. Most definitely. I just wanted to touch on something, because you work with many different addictions and people who experiencing mental health trauma, there's obviously the opioid crisis that's sadly sweeping across the nation and now the world, and quite rightly, people are really paying attention to this, but can you tell us about some of the addictions that are forgotten or are just simply ignored?

Yeah, there's so many. There's food. There's porn, there's sex. There's, relationship addiction and, there is, adrenaline junkie addiction. yeah, really anything that somebody uses to cope with, life circumstances that eventually starts to harm them in some way, and it's something that they do compulsively and impulsively and the eventually ability to stop at some point.

That's where that's that defining line of an addiction. alcohol, drugs, those are known and have been more addressed and at the forefront of our minds. But look at what it is that they're doing behavior wise. There's money addiction, there's workaholism. Addiction, which are, every single one of 'em are just ways to avoid life on life's terms.

That's excellently put. Yeah. 'Cause there does seem to be a lot like you just li listed a whole load of addictions that, that people seem to forget about and don't acknowledge as actually as an addiction as well. So it's a, I just wanted to ask that because of your extensive experience, you also, you, work with.

clients have dual diagnosis. do you think it's being treated as it should? And what would you like to see to improve joint working with services that provide services for people who are experiencing addictions and mental health trauma together?

If you haven't have a dual I. What would I like people to know is look for the behaviors for the why, and don't just treat the behavior of addiction in itself. Addiction is their reason. It's, like putting a bandaid over and you have to dig and find that bullet and figure out why there's a bandaid and not a healed and cleaned out and patched up.

Actually, sono. Trauma therapy is usually what it takes. Revamping of one's life.

do you think there's a disconnect between services of, mental health and, addiction services? Do you think there should be more joint working, or is there, or is enough being done, do you think, for that?

It is so bare minimum. I mean, a lot of people are doing excellent work. But the more community based that you get, the worse it gets. No, I don't think they're doing enough. It's, disjointed, it's disconnected.

Yep. Yeah, most definitely. I had the same experience myself working in England. The same, problem. That's why I asked, because you work with both clients. So thank, you for that. I'd just like to touch on your website because I've read several blogs of yours and they're just amazing.

I would suggest anyone to go and read them and, but one of the. Blogs that I read was about attachment styles. And you touched on this earlier, and I, previously interviewed a couple of experts about this on this podcast, Megan, but can you explain to our audience your perspective on attachment styles and how this relates to people who are going through an addiction or mental health trauma?

That's really, I didn't know you read those blogs. Thank you.

Oh yeah. I've read all of them.

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they're, at the heart of a lot of people's core wounds. And I always say first as a trauma therapist, I assume we as trauma therapists. Assume that best they can with what they have. It's never about saying your parents were crappy, they're bad people. Anything like that. It's about looking at why you became who you are.

People make narratives unconsciously at life and, make it make sense depending on their experiences, from birth and how they're treated and how the world is reflected, to them through their major caregivers, A boy's first relationship with a woman is with mom and with a dad, with men.

Those are models for, how to relate to those. Same with a win. And so that's why is, and that's where the attachment comes in. And if some kind of shift from a secure. If the child learn to distrust the parent, in a major way, they're gonna carry on that distrust to all of their future relationships unconsciously.

again, looking at care caregivers are affected. I'm a parent with life. We have to deal with life. Life. We have to work, we have to, let our children experience, Things and learn their own lessons. And so it's not, a fault of the caregivers. It's more of a, this affected the child and this is why the child grew up the way.

what would eventually be my patient, why they became the way they were, and, knowledge, let's say they, had a really rough relationship. Were able to be home because she was working two or three jobs trying to make a meet, end meet and just to survive. And so the siblings raised each other.

That's gonna affect every one of them from the youngest to the oldest. And the oldest is probably gonna be super responsible and never was allowed to have a childhood and carry that on in Actionism and, struggle in those areas and not being up emotions 'cause they were never allowed. That not knowing how to play and enjoy life and have our workaholics are from that type of background.

so their ribs are gonna be distant in that arm's length, that's gonna be an avoidant ship, and they're gonna want somebody close, but they don't know how to keep that. And they have to keep everything in my control. And this is the unconscious, based on the biases. This is how they think things should be.

'cause it was always like that. And. That is going to disrupt how they bond to potential partners and mates. Partners and mates want intimacy emotionally, not just sexually, those, a lot of individuals confused sexual intimacy for actual intimacy, emotional and spiritual connections that you need to have in a relationship.

The ability to communicate, the ability to connect and have stuff. Avoidant, dismissive keep people like their biggest fear of emotional, with an underlying fear of abandonment. they could eventually in an en meshing relationship or in a completely neglectful relationship where their abandon their major caregiver.

So enmeshment is that suffocating mom told me, dad told me, whoever the caregiver told me how to feel all the time, every day. I didn't know what. Or how to feel myself or, it's over controlling, suffocating type feeling. And then there's just neglect and abandonment, which could be, and it's usually, unconscious and not on purpose, but if the kids were, or caregivers were always away working or they were struggling with their own addictions or they, we're there physically, but not mentally. There's, all sorts of reasons. Then that child at that point may have, formed a low self worth and self a set of ways to try to keep their caregivers close. This is why we get so much, so many issues with people who are in foster care in adoption because they have attachment ruptures and they don't know how others, when they grow up.

Because of that. So I could talk forever

goodness me. That was, an amazing description. Thank you for that. It's, something that's always interested me. We've had a couple of experts who've spoken on this podcast before about this and, it's a subject that I'm very interested in as well. and was a really fantastic explanation, of, attachment theory. Megan, so thank you for that. I just wanna touch on something that always comes up in a lot of my podcast and it's the word stigma of addiction and mental health. I'd just like to ask you, can you tell us what your opinion is as to why stigma has such a big.

Impact on someone wishing to access treatment for addiction or mental health trauma. 'cause it seems to be such a big barrier to someone actually wanting to engage with a service.

Yeah, it still is. Nobody wants to and mocked or shamed for struggling with something, and oftentimes people will play these power dynamics where they're down on the inside a lot less than everybody else to treat everybody else. Like presentation of being one up on that side to put everybody else in one down session.

So that's where the power game of better, this is why, and you're an addict and junkie. You're never gonna amount to anything. I've never dealt with that, or even get into that with addictions. Like I was an alcoholic, but I've never done meth. that's such a dirty thing. And it's like it's all the same dude,

it's just very sad that in this day and age with how things are supposedly progressing, that stigma is just still such a bit, a big in, has still such a big impact on someone. It's, it's, really tragic, but hopefully things are moving on slightly for that, that we can move away from the stigma of addiction and actually address it properly full on.

Would you, agree with that?

I would love to see that. I think that, when this stuff affects somebody, they need to look at why they, that outcome is usually, it sparks a struggle that they have within themselves. Ever. Somebody says, this bothers me so much, I can't stand that person, whatever that is. I'm like, so how do you identify?

Fight with them. What is it about that person that is, and it'd be nice if that stigma would go away, but it, and if, especially if you're looking at like sex and porn. Which is completely stigmatized. Nobody like that. You start to shame men and, women for, you get all these names like, gigolo or slut.

You wanna, like terrible people, but it's. Addiction relationship, jumping two each other, that's an addiction. I don't know if you wanna cut those terms out, but that's the root of stigma. It's horrible. People treat each other horribly because of it, and that keeps better at the end of the day because.

Yeah, we can be so cruel to those who are already down.

yeah, most definitely. last couple of questions, Megan, I ask all my guesses because I get such a wide and varied, response, but can you tell me what your opinion as harm reduction is and how it can play such a role in recovery?

I think you're delaying with harm reduction, something that's better than nothing. but.

I look at solving the court shoes and not trying to control the amount of abuse. Again, somebody also needs to be willing and could to stopping and so it's, a, CLX situation. I'm not going to tell somebody what to do if that model is what works best for. For that person in that pers life, then I will support that.

Absolutely. I'm not, going to, urge it in somebody who has 10 DUIs and is looking at jail time and is, let's, just let's use a little bit. Even when you go in for the p test for the judge, you know that's not gonna be feasible. But it depends on the decision.

In the person. I'm a proponent of abstinence in life change, lifestyle change in a all around manner. Holistic perspective. Learn to be happy without losing, using stuff. learn how life in a healthy manner. find that true internal peace that you've been searching for in those things. all along.

I love that answer. That's wonderful. last question, Megan. do you have a message for anyone? One who's listening to this podcast, who's going through an addiction or mental health trauma, what would you like to say to them?

you are not alone and there's a lot. Millions of other people who are struggling just like you are, and it always gets better. Don't give up trying. Even if you fall, you go back five steps, take two forward, you relapse, it might take years. excruciating amount of pain and shame. It still will get better. Don't ever stop trying.

And that's awesome. can you tell our listeners how to best to contact you and to find your service online as well? Megan?

sure. It's InnerstateHealingandrecovery.com. As in all, when we're in, I didn't think about how long and awful that was gonna be when I. I made that web address, but it's INN as in within Innerstatehealingandrecovery.com Altogether. . I've added that back up. I was doing some revamping on the website. my. email is on that can send a message. 6 0 2 3 4 5 1 3 5 4 is my business number.

Excellent. Megan, I'd just like to thank you personally for, your time this morning. I know it's very early where you are and I really appreciate you taking the time out to speak to us today. I just wanna thank you very much indeed. Thank you.

I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

Thank you, Megan.