Ep61 Addiction Treatment Belief Change for Behavior Change

Ep61 Addiction Treatment Belief Change for Behavior Change

boom, boom,

Chris Langley: Hi, welcome to the Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing Addiction Treatment professionals around the world.

I'm your host Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest, Stan Dokmanus from Hawaii. Stan is the founder and trainer of Belief Eye Movement Therapy, criminal Justice and Addictions Professional, and an internationally certified substance abuse counselor. Stan is also the author of the book Drug Court Treatment, the Verdict.

Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place podcast. And it's so good to have you with us today.

Stan Dokmanus: Thank you, Chris. Thanks for the opportunity. Glad to be here with you.

Chris Langley: Oh, most definitely. I'm sure everyone's gonna love hearing what you've gotta say and, to find out about the great work that you are doing. And so am I.

So we'll start the podcast off. So tell us about yourself and your journey to starting your service in Hawaii.

Stan Dokmanus: Chris, it actually started in the Chicago, Illinois area. I got involved with the US Navy, alcohol and abuse program. It's called NADSAP. And the military has a no nonsense approach to substance abuse or substance use disorder because you can imagine if a pilot's trying to land, a jet on an aircraft carrier and people are using it could create a problem.

they came up with a, zero tolerance for, for substance use that would affect performance. So that's, that was my entry level. And I think it was a great, first experience for me because it demonstrated that this is a no-nonsense thing. This is life and death we're talking about.

That Navy experience led to other experiences, like in my community, for instance, there was a horrible alcohol and other drug and crime problem. What referred to as the AODCTC cycle, alcohol, another drug criminal thinking and conduct cycle. in fact, the prosecuting attorney got, got arrested and charged for dealing and using drugs.

So you can see, what a deep problem it is for every community, not just that that community isn't alone at all. This, it's, every community has a problem like this, whether they know it or not. based on that experience, and I could see it going out and right across the street from my house, this guy was dealing drugs one block away from the high school.

lunchtime looked like a McDonald's drive-in. People were just lined up for drugs. The same thing Friday night on payday cars were lined up around the block to get into this guy's house to, to get. So I thought, something's gotta be done. So I approached the local drug court judge in my community, just to discuss ideas for the solution with them.

And this guy could not have been less interested. He would not give me an appointment. I tried a couple times, finally I gave up and decided to leave that area and, I headed from Maui. I flew to Maui with nothing as far as I'm going to Maui. In fact, I didn't even have, I didn't even have a room reservation. I took care of that when I got to the airport on the island.

When I got here, I, bummed around like vacation time for a week and then decided I wanted to stay. I found the employment office a block away from where I was staying. I walked in and told the counselor that I wanted to get a job, and she says, "well, great." She said, "do you have any idea what you wanna do?"

I said, I'd like to be a substance abuse counselor. And she said, "oh, okay" A shocked look on her face. And she turned around and pointed the back of the office. She says, "do you see that door back there on the right?" I said, "yeah." She said, "okay, go through that door. Knock on the first door on the left.

They're looking for a substance abuse counselor." I thought, you gotta be kidding me. It's that simple. I was wondering what's behind door two or three? And I did. And they knocked on the door and they hired me. And it turns out that my new employer was the treatment provider to Maui Drug Court.

Now, can you imagine the drug court judge at home turned me down, right? Here I tell that lady I wanna be a substance abuse counselor. She says, "okay, go through that door." It turns out, my new employer is the treatment provider to Maui Drug Court here. I got a completely different, I had a completely different experience.

The Chief Drug Court judge liked my work. He showcased it and he suggested that I write a book. In fact, he insisted I write a book. He stayed on me for three years to get it done. And, turns out he liked the book so much, he wrote the forward. So that's how I got started.

Chris Langley: So you moved to Hawaii without really knowing what you were gonna do, and you walked into a place that was gonna help you with employment and there was your, future basically, in that office.

Stan Dokmanus: yeah, that was it. That was 19 years ago.

Chris Langley: Goodness me, I'm not a believer in fate. But you can't argue with that, can you? My goodness.

Stan Dokmanus: There are some, religious, spiritual overtones here. I could go into that. Later or anytime you choose. But there was some before and after here that happened.

And, yeah, there were some, really strange ways that, that things got answered.

Chris Langley: Yeah. Yeah.

Stan Dokmanus: and that was it. It was like for, how did I choose Maui? How do you fly from the middle of the mainland to this small rock out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Then all these things happen in that sequence.

Chris Langley: Had you ever been to Maui before?

Stan Dokmanus: Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, I was in the insurance business before I was a financial planner. and, you sell so much life insurance, you get these awards. And Maui was always my favorite place.

Fact, when IF after my first, trip to Maui and, I, I knew that Hawaii was gonna be in my future.

I just, I love this area. I love the islands, the culture, the spirit, everything about it. that's, I guess that's a partial answer to how I came back, but, as opposed to flying off to X, at least I had that in the back of my mind.

Chris Langley: since, so since you've been in Hawaii, Stan, you've put good together an awesome looking program with some amazing looking services and classes.

Can you tell us about your program and what, you do for your, for your clients, please?

Stan Dokmanus: When I got here and, the boss decided to hire me, he was giving me an orientation, and they had taken me through the classrooms and the offices and all that, and in the main classroom CBT map.

And, it looked like CBT Cognitive Behavior Theory Map and it looked like an electrical diagram to me. Now, I've always had this fear of electricity at that particular . Cra I thought a little standoffish, but I understood it and it was, it almost looked like, okay, here's the stimulus, here's the response. But in between, was the, pattern, this is the how to, it was a, map of how to do CBT, but a lot of people didn't understand that, there was not a lot of training involved in that program.

Pretty much a catch as catch can learn on the job. It was a, manual driven, 18 month program. Alright. I'm gonna take a comment here that, one of my bugaboos, it was an 18 month program, but, not until, and it was a 300 page manual, but not until page 145 did they really stress the importance of beliefs.

And I thought, how strange. It's halfway through the program, which at that point would be nine months. And you in the addiction field or even in the, criminal field, you can imagine all the things that can happen to an individual within nine months.

Chris Langley: Oh yeah.

Stan Dokmanus: they could be on the run. They could be terminated back in prison, or they could be dead from overdose.

And that happened. You've had, you've experienced that every counselor in the field, it's been here for a while, has experienced deaths every year. Oh. I thought, how are you gonna change that behavior if you don't change the beliefs? And I noticed that this was lack, there was no belief- change work going on.

But, more about that as we go along. I don't want to take up too much of your time.

Chris Langley: No, not at all. Please, speak freely because I want our listeners to hear about your experience and your work so important. something else, you work with individuals and with business owners to help with substance misuse, and so how do you work with employees as well as the business owners themselves?

Because that must be quite a, tentative relat, quite a, a sensitive relationship between employer and employee when you're dealing with substance misuse.

Stan Dokmanus: Yeah. and, because, the, clients are afraid they're gonna lose the, employees, they're afraid they're gonna lose their jobs.

Yeah. if this doesn't go right, if I don't, if I don't wanna answer all these questions, properly, blah, blah, blah, my boss need to find out about me and fire me and I'll be ruined. first thing, like we're, I'll talk, meet the client where they're at, put 'em at ease, establish rapport and get into a conversation.

Know what's really going on here? How, do we end up, talking within, with the, business environment, whether it's a business or whether it's a treatment provider organization. Yeah. There's a disconnect between administration and people in the trenches. And, like in the business world, when I was in insurance, it was the difference between the CEO or the owner and a salesperson, and how come you're not meeting quotas?

How come you're not performing like you're supposed to? And I thought, when I got into this field, I thought, what an amazing, mirror image of the, what's going on in insurance and sales, I suppose any type of cleaners.

Seeds or whatever, it's the same thing. You've got to, create rapport, establish a need, talk about solutions. And then in sales, after the, after you know that the, your prospect understands the solution. It's time to close, and then you close successfully. You get the sale. Then you ask for referrals.

substance abuse, especially the drug court field, you don't have to ask for referrals. The, judge is giving you all the referral you need, so that part of the sales process, is absent, but the rest of it pretty much, instead of selling insurance, I was selling recovery. And, I and I came to see the real importance of beliefs that if you don't change.

The long, the core beliefs, the permission granting beliefs, there'll be no long term behavior change. So it's not about, it's not about assessments. It's not about, treatment updates. It's not about billing, it's about doing change work. That's been my, philosophy. It's all about change work.

It's not about paperwork.

Chris Langley: So how long have you been working with businesses for how long with your program?

Stan Dokmanus: It's been, mingled for the last 19 years.

But I, in any opportunity that I get, I'll work with a business to help them solve their problems. Whether it's morale, whether it's, okay, what kind of, what type of belief is holding this client back?

You have to have these individual, and this is one thing with businesses. It might even be more so than with substance abuse treatment. You have to have the one-on-one conversations with the employees, just like you have to have the, one-on-one meetings with your individual clients group. Getting the message across, 12, 24 or 36 people in group is one thing, but you can really hone in during the individual session, that's where I really, got to, demonstrate the importance of belief change the eye movements. because there's, I've had people tell me, you just can't do that . I had one guy in Illinois, that said he was always taught that you can't change core beliefs.

that's just not true. But as all these other experts like, Like Albert Ellis, Aaron Beck, and Miller, and Rolnick, and all these professionals, they, they dwell on the importance of beliefs and also the beliefs of the counselor. Not just the, the patients and the, clients, but it's the beliefs of the counselors and therapist

Chris Langley: something I wanted to touch on, Stan, because you've, you do extensive work. You, really do. I've, seen your websites and seen what you do. And one of the things I wanted to ask you about, you offer Continuing Education Units within your state as well as, the state of Wisconsin.

how long have you been offering this vital service for people who are training to be a counselor or therapist, or who also want to continue with their professional development?

Stan Dokmanus: I started doing Continuing Ed. as soon as I got my certification, which was, I believe January 1st, 2009. And, I thought, I'd been, I, at that point, I had two years to think about, what I saw is the problem and what I saw as a solution and things that I saw that I thought were missing .

So I wanted to address the, missing piece from my continuing ed. that started about 17 years ago, and, it started with a, the Hawaii Alcohol and Drug Abuse Division of the Department of Health. And then I thought, Hawaii's such a small state, why keep all these things a secret here? So I applied to California and, that, C-C-A-P-P, I believe is the, acronym for that approved my work for the state of California.

And I thought, okay, good. Now we're off and running. So then I went to Nevada and then I went to Illinois, my home state. They approved. Everybody approved it. And I've just got great feedback from, a hundred percent of the counselors have given me tremendous feedback about, what they learned in the program.

I was talking with, one master's level a therapist last week, and, she bought my class and she got it in the form of a pdf and she said no. She said no, I printed that and she said, I've got your book, I've got your journal right here in my desk, and I keep it here for reference. it's, great feedback like that, that, that keeps me going, because, it's , a slow, tedious process.

And by the way, because of that slow tedious process, I give you just the greatest props for doing what you're doing for getting feedback from each of the states because I know, what a task that is. Hats off to you, sir.

Chris Langley: Oh, thank you. It, sure is, but it's a genuine privilege to speak to real experts such as yourself, which is something I love doing with this podcast.

It's been a real genuine honor for me. So I thank you for your time today, and thank you for that feedback to myself as well. So that's, wonderful. Thank you so much. my pleasure. Stan, you were previously a NAADAC approved education provider. How long did you work with NAADAC and what did you enjoy most about working with this national organization?

Stan Dokmanus: I worked, with NAADAC for four years. I loved it. I loved the people at NAADAC. The staff, just amazing people. and, one lady, Jennifer, I think she, she's just totally outstanding. and I like the idea of working with Naadac and being approved because pretty much in all 50 states, rather than keep applying to each state one by one I thought, let's get it done

One fell swoop. And that's what I really enjoyed about, the NAADAC opportunity. And it's true, you get to communicate and, talk with people from coast to coast. I didn't reach all 50 states like you are, but you're doing a much, much better job at, making that happen than I did.

I just, I waited for people to respond, but literally coast to coast and, north to south. I got people all over the country.

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Stan Dokmanus: I've used my program. So I'm, proud of that because like I say, great feedback. Yeah.

Chris Langley: And you worked with NAADAC for four years. When did you finish working with them?

Stan Dokmanus: this last year. Okay. A renewal came up and I thought I'm gonna go off from different tack this time. Yep. but I think I wanna do it again because I just I like the NAADAC exposure.

Chris Langley: Yep.

Stan Dokmanus: Great organization. Why, why not work within your organization if that's what you are.

Chris Langley: Yeah, they're an, they are an incredible organization. I'm very, pleased to help in a very small way myself by being the Secretary of Iowa, which is something I've been doing for the last year. And I, love the organization. And when I saw that you'd been an approved education provider. I had to ask the question.

It would've been wrong for me not to. So thank you so much for that. and I'm sure they'd love to have you back, that's for sure. I mentioned at the introduction, Stan, that you were the author of the book called Drug Court Treatment, the Verdict. can you tell us about your book and what your aims were when you wrote it?

It seems fascinating.

Stan Dokmanus: Yeah. that was, that was a real ironic experience and a shocker to me. one day I was sitting in the gallery, in the courtroom and the, the court clerk came over to me and she said, the judge wants to see you after class, after court. I thought, oh, I'm in trouble now. generally If you're standing in front of a judge, you got some kind of problem, Oh yeah. I, go up to, up to the, bench after, after court, he says, "I've been meeting to have a talk with you." And he said, "I've been doing this for over 10 years." And he said, "I've never seen, results that you're getting." He said, "I need to learn more about this." So we talk and, finally it's getting toward the end of the day.

And he says, "you know what?" He said, "you gotta write a book about how you do drug court treatment." He said, "everybody in this field needs to learn how to do that. In fact," he said, "you know what?" He said, "not only that," he said, "you gotta write a book for, us attorneys too." So I'll tell you what he said,

" Every one of these attorneys involved in this program, he said they know the law backwards and forwards. None of them know anything about what you're doing and they need to know because it'll help them help their clients."

So I thought, okay, how do I, do that? I'm not an attorney. I dunno the jargon or anything like this, So I started with a, continuing legal education document. attorneys have to have continuing eds, like counselors, but they just call it CLEs, continuing legal ed. And so then the judge thought it'd be a good idea if I did a continuing legal ed program. So I did. And, I bounced it off of an attorney friend of mine who's been really helpful being a beta reader for me. She read my, my book for, drug court treatment, the verdict, and she, looked over the, attorney CLE program. She said, Stan, she said, "you ought to send this to a school I went to." And I said, tell me more. And she told me about the Trial Lawyers College. And, I contacted them and once they verified who I was and that I was referred to 'em said, yes, send your document over.

So I sent it over and, they got back to me the next day or the day after and said, "Stan, this is a great program. We want to use this for our attorneys, but we've got a problem. We're shut down because of the pandemic." And I said, yeah, I got the same problem. And, they said, "but we wanna use it."

We're gonna figure something out. And he got back with me, an attorney got back with me, I think it was the next day, and they said, we figured out what we wanna do is we wanna do a podcast with you. People will learn about your program. So we did that, like it's supposed to be a 30 minute podcast setting up to be 45.

And they posted it on their website. I was really proud of that. There, here I was with all these attorneys and judges and, They, that they thought enough along with the judge to, consider this valuable information so that all it all worked together with the book Drug Court Treatment, The Verdict, and, because that was, the suggestion of the judge.

And he sat, stayed on me for three years to get that book done. Yeah. And I finally did. And, said he liked it so much, he wrote the foreword to it.

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Stan Dokmanus: And, that led to, the next, book, there's an ebook on Amazon. It's called Belief Eye Movement Therapy. And, it is, it's a way to change limiting hurtful beliefs in as little as 15 or 20 minutes.

And I've got testimonials that'll verify that I've, had people witness the work with live cases that came right out of drug court and, People are amazed at the results.

But, it, that I'm having a flashback of something that, that we may cover. It's a, a counselor from Illinois had 30 years experience and, when he was, he took my, CE class.

In fact, he was the only person who got a hundred percent on that version of the CE class . he said, he was shocked that, about this information about beliefs. He said he was always taught that you can't change a, core belief. And, he said something like, I got it here. He says, he said, "you not only taught me that you can change limiting beliefs, but he said they must be changed as soon as possible."

So he became a believer. In the, in the treatment and, people that I get a chance to work with are, they're just amazed. I've had people tell me, "Stan, you changed my life in 20 minutes." And I thought, wow, that's a huge statement. The more people in this world need to get that message, But, and that's why I put the program together. It's, hope, hopefully it'll be some kind of legacy that, more counselors and therapists will pick up on it.

Paperwork reports don't change anybody. When, it comes to addiction and criminal thinking and conduct, to me the goal is you gotta change the behavior.

But it's like all these experts say, and it goes back 2000 years to Epictetus. you gotta change your beliefs first. It's the cognitive stuff, before it's gonna be the behavioral stuff.

Chris Langley: That must have been a very powerful testimonial. When someone said to you, Stan, you changed my way of thinking my life in 20 minutes,

Stan Dokmanus: brought tears .

I'm getting emotional thinking about it. No, it, just brings tears to my eyes, having that experience, I like a baby if someone says that, but it's rewarding. Yeah. You get through the tears and it's rewarding.

Chris Langley: Yeah. As, this work should be, it should be rewarding.

And what you've explained to me in the last 25 minutes, it's just been quite incredible. and to hear the, impact of your work has had on so many people and to be told by a judge to write a book. It's just, that's wonderful. So big kudos to you.

Stan Dokmanus: Thank you. You can imagine how shocked I was.

Chris Langley: Oh, yeah.

Stan Dokmanus: Yeah. Because the, second he said that I had a flashback to the judge who turned me down back home, and I thought, what a contrast. Two judges, one's one won't give you the time of the day. And the other one says, you gotta write a book. Now how do you explain that?

Chris Langley: one judge was right and one judge was very wrong.

That's all I can say.

Stan Dokmanus: It makes me wonder, though, about the field because like I say, paperwork doesn't change anybody. But the, and the emphasis on the programs is, okay, now you gotta do this. You gotta do this assessment, this intake assessment. And they come in, this is how you do it.

And this is the beat of the program right here. How you describe the client, I looked over the charts of other counselors with their assessments of the same people. And I've heard, the case managers and counselors in court at staffing talk about the same person.

And I thought, you know what? That person is my client, and this doesn't sound anything like that situation. what you read in the reports and what's actually going on are two completely different things. And that's why I don't like to, I don't like to, depend on what another counselor or therapist said about this particular client, because I think it a chance to create a bias that, you might start out with a negative attitude about this person based on that writer's, that author's report.

the historian, dangerous, situation. So I, like to just, I like to talk with the, clients and face to face, knee to knee, not no big old desk between us or anything like that. Just eyeball to eyeball. And, I gave each client a chart and there's 13 different, what I call presuppositions down the chart.

And I said, which one stands out here to you to be the most effective or meaningful to you? And, I recall that, that every one of 'em would touch, but I'll point the touch on the piece of paper on the wall, this one right here. And number nine was worn away from so much skin oil and so many people touching it.

And it was, anybody can do anything. And I thought, okay, now this gives me some insight about these, this person's beliefs. This is a very empowering belief that. Anybody can do anything. And if they can do it, I can do it. So it, to me, it addressed their beliefs about capability, which is one of the major beliefs I've, I come up with 20 different beliefs that are holding people back.

In fact, I, used to collect beliefs from the clients and in group and, and, with their permission to use them. And, the two most common belief problems were, one was identity, and the other one was values. And, addiction and criminal thinking and conduct definitely addresses values. what's right or wrong values are about what's right or wrong in your world.

So immediately, first day, I've got some insight into their beliefs and I've got some direction about what we need to address. Then as best possible, I'll put that in the, soap notes or whatever, to me, it's a different process. It's not a paperwork process.

It's a cognitive process. And it's you're not gonna sell, like going back to insurance. I'm not gonna sell any insurance by writing about sending a nice little note . Talk to the prospect, find out what their needs and wants are, their beliefs and values. Show how you can address that.

And then you get the sale.

Chris Langley: like you said earlier, Stan, it's, this is life changing stuff and it must be a, it's a very different, approach and it, must shock some clients as well to be like, oh my gosh, I've never really thought of this before. Where if someone's been through treatment before, they have the, assessments, the counseling, but they don't actually get to the core of the beliefs

Stan Dokmanus: as, as you're saying that I had a flashback to a client who was in this, he was in prison for 20 years, in outta prison for 20 years. He was in our program, and he said, Stan, he said, "I'm gonna tell you what he said. You're the only person that has ever said this to me." He said, "anybody else in this field said, as long as you stay sober, you're gonna be okay."

I, I just can't agree with that because, there's, you know what? Those figures are in relapse, in recidivism. who was it? and, doing a dis disservice to the person. Marich and Dansiger wrote a book, Healing Addiction with EMDR. EMDR is like Belief 5 therapy. Yeah. But they report that, in the first year of treatment, 40 to 60% of the people relapse.

if ever they're gonna be not using alcohol or other drugs, it's gonna be in the first six months to a year of treatment. they say that 40 to 60% of the people relapsed in the first year. By the second year, 80% relapse. what I'm saying is, if you don't change their permission granting core beliefs about alcohol and other drugs and criminal thinking and conduct, you're not expect any long-term change.

So I agree a hundred percent with wa Berg and Milkman and the other experts like, Elli and all of them gotta work on their beliefs. So this guy, said, you're the only guy in over 20 years that has ever talked about beliefs and changing 'em. and this guy's doing fine to this day.

Chris Langley: Congratulations again. thank you. It's just lovely to hear that your work is having such an impact on certainly so many clients and, the profession as well. I think as well with your book that's gonna be read by many, lawyers, attorneys who are working in drug courts, it's it's very important that lawyers get the chance to learn about their clients as well.

'cause I don't think many do. I've worked with lots of lawyers in the past before and they just see a client who's using drugs as just a person without. no understanding addiction, and I think there's a mis a disconnect there. how, where can someone get hold of your books then?

I would just like to ask, I'm, gonna put a link in the, the, notes here, but where can someone get a, copy of your book?

Stan Dokmanus: amazon.com. Yep. I've got a half a dozen books there now. addressing everything from relapse and recidivism to AA, to drug court treatment, to Belief Eye Movement therapy.

they're similar 'cause they overlap, like a Venn diagram. Everything overlaps in this field. But yeah. Thanks, for suggesting that, Stan Dokmanus, and it's at amazon.com Yep. It should show my bookshelf there.

Chris Langley: Excellent. I'll, I'll make sure that we have the link in all of the, all of where we publish these, these podcasts now.

So thank you for that. I'd just like to, I'll just to move on a little bit. 'cause I asked, I've been interviewing many states around the country, and I've, got a few questions I like to ask everyone on these podcasts. with what's going on with the opioid crisis around the country and now around the world.

How is Hawaii coping with, what's going on? Are they, addressing it properly, head on, or would you say

Stan Dokmanus: it's interesting that you'd say properly and I know that's the u uk it's gonna be properly, they're addressing it, Chris. They're addressing it.

Chris Langley: Yeah. Okay.

Stan Dokmanus: but it's problematic like everywhere else. Fentanyl, same thing. Hawaii has, culturally sensitive. There's some differences.

Like for instance, marijuana has been here through everyone's life. they're, just everybody uses a lot of growing, a lot of dealing. So for those who are gateway theory theorists, they can see that's a problem because it's not a huge leap to the next drug when your peers are pressuring you, oh, come on, try this.

look at me, didn't hurt me. And, so then before you know it, they're doing crystal meth or, the opioids or fentanyl or, name it, it's all, we're the crossroads of the Pacific here, right?

Chris Langley: Yeah,

Stan Dokmanus: that's true. And everything that's for sale in Asia is here.

Everything that's for sale from the cartels in Mexico is here. Everything that's for sale from South America is here. plus, you got all the labs and the patches that are. People are maintaining on their own here. Okay. So it's, I guess to answer that, the question, yeah. It's being addressed. probably with the same success as the other states, right?

Because everybody's sharing that knowledge. here's what we learned.

Chris Langley: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's something I've been learning about as well with d speaking to the different states and finding out what, what is going on with fentanyl and opioids. It's been fascinating for me to hear the different, angles and ways that enforcements and, drug services are dealing with this.

yeah, As I said to you before we started recording, the UK is now going through the same thing, and it seems to just be going across Europe now and the rest of the world, sadly. So it's, very, difficult times, that's for sure. one other question I like to ask is, about stigma. why do you think in this day and age that stigma of addiction and mental health still stops people from wishing to attend, as a therapist or a service to address these issues?

It seems to be, we're still in this kind of, we're just stuck here with stigma.

Stan Dokmanus: I can tell you from a personal experience stigma, I think is, like a form of fear. if it's, internal. So there's internal stigma and there's external stigma. Okay. My shame, your guilt, stuff like that, so I think for me, I had an alcohol use disorder problem. And, I knew I had a problem. it's like I wasn't in total denial about this thing. I was already in contemplation or preparation. And I asked a, registered nurse one time, what do you think would happen if I quit drinking?

And she said, you'd probably go into delirium, tremors and then you'd have to go into the hospital and be detoxed. And I thought, that's not gonna happen. But, everybody on town will know their insurance agents a south, and, that wouldn't that not be good for business? So I had the internal stigma.

It was my fear of being stigmatized and my reputation would be ruined. so that's how I feel about stigma. And I think it's important to realize the difference between the internal stigma and the external. I think the external's a shame when people are berating people because they have this, that, or the other.

Now, you wouldn't, you wouldn't criticize or, demean anybody for having diabetes or cancer, but, as soon as it's alcohol or, you're a pothead or something like that, you know the name calling, you know the shaming. So the stigmas, the stigmas, the shaming, right? Yep. So that, that's why I think it's so important.

And, that's one of the thing that, need that, that I often need to address in the, Belief Eye Movement therapy because you have to be sensitized to that. where the stigma was a huge issue before. after the Belief Eye Movement therapy, like on a one to 10 scale, it might have been a 10 being really high before, but after the EMT, it's down to a zero or a one and I'm, satisfied if it's a zero or a one.

I don't think it harms to have some of, pain. Do you want to eliminate pain a hundred percent or because we know pain's a, signal there's something wrong. we don't want it to vanish. You want some type of, indicator on your dashboard that there's something wrong here so that, zero to one in the pain, to me is acceptable.

if it's acceptable, for the client. But I had, let me double check here. I had sent a, testimonial to you, I think. With this lady who was having intestinal problems for over 11 years, and ah, here we go. "The therapy was successful on the first try. I know you'd be, may be thinking this is impossible, but I'm living proof.

My intestines are no longer running my life, eliminating it. As I should say. I am now off all medications and I've been able to return to work. My daily activities are no longer limited as they were for the past 11 years. I highly recommend this therapy with Stan Dokmanus. I'm fortunate to be relieved of my pain and limitations and begin functioning fully in my life.

I'm sincerely grateful and for his work, it's all possible because of him." that when I first read that, was one of those tear tearful moments. Because, and I, felt that way as we were doing the work because I could see the relief.

Chris Langley: So you, helped this lady who was going through this pain for 11 years.

Stan Dokmanus: Couldn't work.

Chris Langley: Gosh. Wow. I can imagine. Imagine. But that's, I can imagine being emotional, getting that testimonial as well. you can

Stan Dokmanus: Well, yeah.

Chris Langley: Can't, you can't get any more of a, a positive response than that, surely?

Stan Dokmanus: No. No. When, when we were talking, she approached me about help and I thought, this is, now, this is, okay, now we're meeting each other where we're at, right?

Yep. I'm listening to her story. I wanna hear her version of what's going on, and as she went on, I'm thinking, this certainly sounds like a belief to me. So I just had to clarify that with her. I said, "okay, now here, help me out here. Just let's, I need a clarification. you said to me" this and I just, rephrased what she said and she said, yeah.

And I says, "does that sound like a belief to you?" And then she thought, for a moment she says, "yeah, I guess it's a belief." And I said, "does it seem like a limiting belief or an empowering belief?" And she said, it's definitely limiting. And I said, if I could show you a way to eliminate that limiting belief and give you something empowering to work with, would you be interested in seeing how it works?"

And she thought for a split second, she, oh, Did the Believe And, in her case, I think it was more like an hour 40, 40, 40 minutes to an hour. But, see that's what happened as a result of it. So it's that conversation, important. what's the person really saying and what's between the lines?

now hers was not an addiction issue, it was a physical health issue. But if you take, situations like Matthew Perry that I think I, I read his book, "Friends Lovers and the Big, Terrible Thing." And, in fact, I read it five times.

I've got that book so marked up, it's, nobody would recognize it anymore. But there was an idea there, there's an example of, here's a guy who spent 8 million bucks on treatment, like 65 different treatments. 15 different detox, had surgery. his intestines just went through everything. And finally, now we're finding out, yeah, he had 17 shots, ketamine shots the week before he died.

So apparently his permission granting core beliefs had not been addressed sufficiently. And we see the results. Could it be any worse?

Chris Langley: No. No. Not at all. So would you re, would you recommend someone read the Matthew's book?

Stan Dokmanus: Oh, yes. Yeah. Clearly. I think, clearly I, whether you're a counselor, a therapist, or you're having substance use disorder problems, read that book.

Don't read any of my books.

Chris Langley: Read, Stan's books as well.

Stan Dokmanus: Please

read, that book and then read it again. Excellent.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

It's shocking. And then, Newsweek came out with their 350 best treatment organizations in the country, and I thought, 350 and there's 17,000 of them.

So what does that say about the bottom 20%?

Chris Langley: Wow. Yeah. That's interesting.

Stan Dokmanus: Yeah. Yeah. there's just a lot of work to be done in this field.

Chris Langley: Oh yeah. Yeah, most definitely. And I'm finding out about that in, in every one of these podcasts. And, I really am, one of the last questions I ask, it's a little bit controversial, but I ask all my guesses 'cause I get some interest in varied answers anyway, but, can you tell me your opinion of harm reduction and how it can play a role in recovery?

Stan Dokmanus: I think harm reduction is critical. it's a must. And if we look at that, Going back to when I talked about being oriented from the, when the guy decided to hire me, he shows me the CBT map. CBT and this particular manual, that 300 page manual, who was peer harm reduction. There's, gonna be no magic there.

There's not gonna be any changes in 20 minutes or 40 minutes or 60 minutes. This is a process that everybody's depending on that after 18 months possibly, you'll consider not doing criminal thinking and conduct anymore. I have a more acute approach to change, but that's a, that's the pure definition of harm reduction.

But also what about belief change as a method of harm reduction? I think belief change is, is a key to harm reduction if these other people are correct.

Berg and Milkman and Miller and Rollnick and, Hallbom, he had something to do with book Beliefs, Pathways to Illness or something like that. But, if we don't change the beliefs, there's not gonna be a long-term behavior change. So Isn't that pure harm reduction

Chris Langley: Oh, to its core? Most definitely.

Stan Dokmanus: Yeah. I, think it's basic. focus on that that first hour, the first day, the first week of treatment, focus more on their beliefs than the paperwork. You've got a year to do the paperwork.

Yeah. And, administration, billing don't about.

Chris Langley: That's an, that's a really interesting one to start. Harm reduction with beliefs. I think that's, profound. That really is. Yeah. Yeah. It really is. Yeah.

Stan Dokmanus: Okay. collecting these beliefs, from the clients or they say, I, I can't put anything I want in my body. I'm no good anyway.

What difference does it make? that's definitely a belief about identity. Then there's some values and there's capability and then, in the drug court, environment, you're definitely talking about environment. So you know those major beliefs. and then you wanna listen for a helpless, hopeless, worthless, all of those.

And then you get a chance to just, ask for the clarification and rephrase what you thought you heard. And did I hear that correctly? Can you help me with that? Yep. And, then you can get onto, I, in the stages of change, they, they're, talking about. Even in, in a, training class, they'll tell you, when you get people in your groups, they're, gonna be in Precontemplation and they're kicking and screaming and all that.

Oh, true. I, 70, 80% of them could be in Precontemplation when they come in. a lot of 'em come in because they're faking it. They'd rather be there than in prison. And that was the choice. But, helping 'em recognize the stages of change. And another thing, Chris stages have changed.

generally they talk about the five of them, and then the sixth one will be relapse or recycling. But I think we have to stress the seventh one. And, I think that's what happened for me when, I remember when I asked the nurse, what would happen if I stopped drinking? Yes. And then she said, you have to go, you go in the dt and all that kind of stuff.

And I thought, fool you on that. so much later. I thought, this is getting bad. I gotta do something. 'cause I watched an uncle die of cirrhosis of the liver, and that was not attractive. And I, was, I used visualization. I thought, this is what I got coming. I'll go just like him if I keep going like this.

so that was on the left and over on the right, I visualize how I wanted to be. I wanted my heart, lungs, and esophagus to be clear and pink, as opposed to, brown and yucky. Like a, oxygen tube of someone who's a smoker. You ever seen one of those?

Chris Langley: Oh, yes. Sadly. I have to ask.

Stan Dokmanus: Oh,

disgusting. And I thought, okay, that's what I've got. That's disgusting. Here's what I want. So there's a great, there's a great dissonance there, right? And that's what did it for my brain. So I explained that to a therapist. Here's where I am. So here, meet me where I'm at. Here's where I wanna go.

Please take me there like an Uber. Uber, I'll meet you where you're at and take you where you wanna go.

Yeah.

And, that's what we should be doing.

Chris Langley: Yep.

Stan Dokmanus: And that's what this therapist did for me in a, in one two hour session.

One two hour session. Yeah. So from that point, I believe I transcended that I call the seventh stage of change transcendence. And I had a, couple, spirited arguments with colleagues that work about that. oh, no. it's precon con preparation, action maintenance.

And I said, I can't go along with you on that. we never did come to an agreement, but I think transcendence is the way to go if you wanna save your liver. At least that's the way it was for me. My liver couldn't have put up with my behavior much longer. and couldn't wait for me to, spend all that time in the stages of change and one program after another.

Chris Langley: thank you so much for sharing that, Stan. That was, very inspiring. I love your explanation around harm reduction. that was fantastic. last question. do you have a message for anyone who's listening to this podcast who's going for an addiction, what would you say to them?

Stan Dokmanus: it's, that's right next to what I just got done saying, my experience with the, cognitive dissonance and here's what I had and this is what I wanted and I had to find someone to get me across those stages of change.

if I can do it, you can do it. Because I was in a bad way. I'm gonna share a story with you, Chris, I'm not too proud of. Okay. I was going with the young lady whose parents owned a bar. They said, Stan, we've never seen anybody drink like you do. Now. This, is not something you ordinarily wanna hear, have a lot of people know, But if it would help in your work and get the message across, I'm willing to throw that out there. If I can do it, you can do it. If you mess with snakes, you can get bitten. The venom can kill you. And that's what alcohol is. It's the venom, it's also the snake. But, we all need to examine our core permission granting beliefs.

And that's whether we're, the client, the patient, or the counselor therapist. We all need to advantage our, examine our core beliefs because it's like, the guy, his name was Armand Welsh. he was the counselor in Illinois, 30 years. Experience. Armand told me, Stan, he said, I was taught you cannot change core beliefs.

So he had a belief about not being able to change core belief. So couldn't you see as a counselor, he could have, he, could benefit from doing the Belief Eye Movement therapy and changing that belief. And then he could be more effective as a counselor. Then he can teach his clients how to do that for each other.

Because a husband and wife can do this for each other once they know the basis and they can always call for help or tune up if they need, Hey Stan, it's not working. you've probably heard this, with your experience in the field. People have tried these other methods and I'm not, I'm not gonna name the methods.

I just don't think it'd be professionally, appropriate. But they'll say, I tried this. I can't do it. It's not working for me. It's not working for my clients. with this method, I can teach anybody how to do this. And they can teach it to their significant others so they can, get the help right there.

It's, you've seen these, what they call it, the animals, the, care, the caregiving animals, you know how they train dogs. The dog can tell when there's going something wrong with you and the dog will make you sit down and some dogs will even push the medicine. They'll record, here's what you gotta take this.

Have you seen that?

Chris Langley: I've heard about it. Yeah.

Stan Dokmanus: It's amazing stuff. That's, it's just amazing that someone had that idea. And can teach that dog how to do this and recognize it. Teach the dog how to recognize the symptom, something's going wrong, and then here's the solution. it's the same thing with this.

Yeah. People can, it's that simple. Can teach it to anybody. Yeah. And they can teach it to anybody.

Chris Langley: I, you mentioned this earlier, Stan, but can you tell our listeners how to best to contact you and to find out about your amazing service online? I'm sure people would love to speak to you

Stan Dokmanus: online. It would be my name, standokmanus.com. And, do I put, tell my phone number Chris,

Chris Langley: you please do if you feel free.

Yeah.

Stan Dokmanus: 8 0 8 3 8 5 4 5 5 0. And if, I can help you, I believe that's what I'm here for.

And you can find me on LinkedIn too, Stan Dokmanus.

Chris Langley: Yep. Yep. That's where we thankfully met.

Stan Dokmanus: Yeah. And I'm thankful for that.

Chris Langley: No, me too. Me too.

Stan Dokmanus: we, our paths have crossed in a couple different ways. LinkedIn and Naadac.

Chris Langley: That's right.

Stan Dokmanus: That's right. Plus the field.

Chris Langley: That's right. And I'm very, pleased to, to have spoken to you for the last hour and to get to know you and your work is incredible.

And it's,

Stan Dokmanus: thank you.

Chris Langley: It's, very powerful. And I think, everyone should be hearing about a lot more about this.

Stan Dokmanus: thank you. Thank you. Chris.

Chris Langley: You're the first person I think in, this is, I think this is my 60th podcast and no one's discussed this. there's no criticism of any other therapies at all, but I think this is quite important stuff and I think people do need to do need to acknowledge this.

yeah.

Stan Dokmanus: And

doesn't, it make sense as an initial move? Let's, address this. The first hour, the first day, the first week. Why put it off? Because this guy can be dead with a needle in his arm next week.

Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. I'm sure many, clients and professionals, you are working with lawyers, you're working with attorneys, you've, got a judge that's forwarded your book.

just so impressed with your work and

thank you

and, keep doing the great work that you are doing. And, thank you so much for being such a great guest today. And I've already taken up an hour of your time today, so I really appreciate, the opportunity to learn more about you and, and thank you for everything you do for your clients and, I really appreciate it.

Thanks, Stan.

Thank you're,

thank,

appreciated.