Ep57 Addiction Treatment Working with Heroes

Ep57 Addiction Treatment Working with Heroes

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley: Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host, Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest, Jon Dower. Jon is the Executive Director of West Virginia Sober Living Solutions and the President of West Virginia Association of Addiction and Prevention Professionals, amongst many other vital roles that we're going to be discussing today.

So welcome to Addiction Recovery Plays podcast, Jon. It's so good to have you with us today.

Jon Dower: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me.

Chris Langley: No, I really appreciate your time. And obviously you're very busy given the amount of, work that you do. So we're just going to go straight into the first question, Jon. So could you tell us about yourself and your journey to becoming the executive director of West Virginia Sober Living Solutions, please?

Jon Dower: Sure. I'm a pretty open individual. I am, an individual that has experienced opioid use disorder. in my teens, I had migraines, was introduced to, pharmaceutical opioids at that point by family physician, and migraines really continued throughout my twenties and, while it was probably medically necessary for me to have some sort of analgesic or some version of pain relief, what I learned, throughout that experience, is not only did they impact physical pain, but they impact emotional, and psychological pain. I am a survivor of, childhood sexual assault, in my, late, in my mid teens, I was aware that my dad was diagnosed with, cancer and he succumbed to, adenoid cystic carcinoma in my early twenties. while I was experiencing growth and development all the normal phases of adolescence of questioning self and questioning why are we here and what am I going to do with my life, I'm also dealing with complex trauma and grief and loss issues throughout all of my adolescence and really the early part of the development of adulthood for myself. say all that to provide the framework, in my teens, vocationally, I worked in, restaurants and it's a very work hard, play hard environment. you, you are put under tremendous amounts of stress to, To really produce an outcome that often in a kitchen perspective, you never get to see cause you're in the back of the house.

You don't get to see the customers eating it, they enjoy your food if they keep coming back to your restaurant. I think some of those same sorts of values extrapolated throughout my life and in various aspects. However, I woke up in my thirties after, I'm fast forwarding, but I think it's important here. woke up in my thirties really having, Either disintegrated, lit the bridges on fire behind me, or, been disconnected from most of family. Most of, social support networks, really, isolated. and not interfacing with the most adaptive, of individuals in my life. and there was just a morning I was lying on a couch and said, Is this what I wanted my life to look like?

And, certainly the answer was no. but strangely, maybe not so strangely, my experience was, it was a very, distinct fork in the road. I was either going to, allow, one last use to take me out, which I certainly considered in that moment, or I was going to try to do something different, and I was able to, fight inside of the state system of addiction care in West Virginia at that point to get a charity bed at a local detox facility and then fight then to get a charity bed for longer term care because I was very acutely aware that seven to ten days was not going to solve my issue. And I was lucky, inside of that place, there were people like me, meaning some of the staff had lived experience with substance use disorder. I met some, uh, and maybe they may not know this, but very influential people that, started planting the seeds that turned me into an addiction professional many years later. of that treatment center, knew that being back in a kitchen probably wasn't the place for me. Took some different vocational pathways initially. and then somebody, one of my really close friends that I knew from, active use and in recovery was offered a job by my current employer. and he He had a better job than what was being offered. He worked at a energy company and declined it, but recommended me to my now boss, a guy named Doug Leach. And Doug had his own bouts with addiction and the criminal justice system as well, and had went to Hazleton Betty Ford and Center City, Minnesota. But the court system made him come back to West Virginia. And when he came back to West Virginia because of court and because of legal requirements, he had just went from the Harvard or Yale of addiction care back to, really a treatment desert. there were the psychosocial supports, there weren't recovered, there wasn't recovery housing. there was really treatment as usual that we saw in other areas of the country. But often five or ten years behind, the. best practice approach to things. It wasn't widely available for West Virginians. he started a company called Intervent and Morgantown Sober Living. So they were kind of sister companies. One focused on clinical outcomes. And, he brought one of his friends that was a guy named Craig Cohen that graduated from Hazleton Betty Ford as a master's addictions counselor. And he did a recovery house, which provided the supportive atmosphere. So he initially hired me. and I was really using lived experience to work one on one with people. And eventually, his need inside of the recovery housing standpoint grew to the point that he asked me to work for both companies. so you asked how I got here. It may be one of my favorite funny stories. while working in that recovery house, I had, use disorder as well. still do, still use some nicotine, probably shouldn't, but do. and I was outside smoking and one of the participants in the house was sitting there telling me he went back to West Virginia university and that there was this new addiction studies class. And, Through that process of enrolling, he talked to the professor that said there was only five students in the class and unless they got the census up to eight, they were going to dissolve the class for the semester and he would have to apply again in the future once they got enough. willingness for their, for enrollment in the class. So I jokingly said to him, I was, I'm only six credit hours away from graduation. I'll just go re enroll with WVU and take the class. That way you can actually do it. I guess I only partially said it in jest. I don't know that I had the foresight or the actual thought in that moment that I was actually going to follow through and do it.

I went back the following day to the university's registrar's office and reapplied and was accepted and enrolled in the class. from that point, I was in an addictions class with about six or seven of my friends of a class of, Eight, all seven of the eight I had a personal friendship with. So it was partly a class and partly extension of my social group. but I had a great mentor, a lady at WVU named Frankie Tack, who taught an amazing class and really inspired me not just to work on the ancillary parts of addictions care, but really to think about the counseling perspective. I finished my, undergraduate degree with her. got, was one of the first graduates of West Virginia University with an addictions minor. shortly after graduating, I got my, addictions counselor certification and went on to graduate school. and became an adjunct for her teaching in addiction studies at West Virginia University. went on, got a graduate degree, graduated with a 4. 0. became a licensed professional counselor in the last two years. pursued the graduate level, addictions counselor certification. found myself in every, I jokingly say I'm three degrees of Kevin Bacon from anything addiction related. in the state of West Virginia. So I've been on everything from the governor's council that effect policy and kind of drives the train, so to speak, of how we deal with addiction in the state, to overseeing a third party certification body on the board of directors. The certification body oversees recovery housing in the state, so I served as vice president for several years of that board, to now being state president for addiction and prevention professionals, which To be fair, my colleagues on the board are probably better suited for this podcast than me, because they do a lot of amazing work. I'm the guy that they just gave the title of president. So to be fair, you could have a guy named Joe Deegan who is certainly, a founder of Addiction Care in the state of West Virginia or Susie Mullins, who is a great individual for my board to be on here and tell equally as amazing story as I will say. I found myself in here, in this field because gave me chances that are a combination of opportunity, some merit. And some simply luck. I don't believe that I'm here because of me. I think I'm here because a thousand plus people have helped me set in the seat and have the opportunity to talk to you. Truly the cliche of I'm standing on the shoulder of giants is true, about why I'm here today. cause there were a lot of people that came before me that afforded me this opportunity that I'm grateful for.

Chris Langley: My goodness me, Jon, what an introduction. How long ago did this start when you just, we had that point in your bedroom where you're like, I've got to change this. how, long, how many years ago was this? Because you've achieved so much.

Jon Dower: my, of last use was January, the 11th of 2012. so I just celebrated 13 years a couple of Sundays ago.

Chris Langley: That's me. So in 13 years, you've achieved everything that you've just spoken about for the last 10 minutes.

Jon Dower: Yeah. And while those things are great,

I would love to add to that, what I actually got in those 13 years was self esteem, was self worth, was integrity, was the ability to be honest with myself and the people around me. was an amazing wife, was, Rehashing relationships and mending fences with a lot of my family members with becoming a father.

So while all of these accolades and, so my director of operations, a guy named Dan McCauley says, I'm trying to get the whole alphabet after my name because my,signature is getting a bit long these days. the truth of the matter is the most important things to me, are my relationship with the people that helped me be the best version of self, the role that I have as husband and the role that I have as father, those far or beyond anything that I do vocationally.

Chris Langley: That's so inspiring. I think anyone that's going to be listening to this podcast is just going to be blown away by what you've just described. So big congratulations to you, Jon. It's just amazing to hear. I just want to talk to you about the West Virginia Sober Living Solutions. Can you tell me about some of the services that you provide, please?

Jon Dower: Yeah. So initially we just started out with recovery housing. So recovery housing. is what it sounds like. It's housing for people in recovery. A lot of people confuse it with treatment centers. It's not a treatment center. It is structured living with accountability, building a family system that may not be biological, but certainly. Support to one another in a really healthy way, build, structure and accountability amongst the group and, really allows them to work through some of early core necessities of being an adult. How do you deal with interpersonal conflict? How do you deal with, financial or fiscal responsibility, things along those lines. the need, the demand algorithm supply. we had to expand. we initially expanded to a women's house, although in our area of Morgantown, West Virginia, we saw that the, need for men exceeded the need for women. So at one point we turned the women's house back into a men's house, and had, second male house and then eventually opened a, a women's house. Women's House in Morgantown. and then some funding came available at the state and we expanded into our state capital, Charleston, West Virginia. So currently I have about six homes that I oversee with about 85 total beds across those six homes. Supporting adult males, adult females, and women with children up to the age of 12.

so we try to look at a bit of both worlds. during that process We interfaced with a lot of institutions including West Virginia University And one of them was seeking a grant on The National Office of Drug Control Policy. the idea of this funding was, hey, maybe people with lived experience can be a useful tool in reducing morbidity and mortality in our state.

We're a very rural state. to say any place is urban is somewhat of a misnomer. I live in one of the bigger areas and I think when students aren't here we may have a 30, 000 person population. were not an extremely large area. However, we were able to secure the funding through the University of Baltimore, which received it from the National Office of Drug Control Policy and started placing this new, this new type of staff member called a Peer Recovery Support Specialist inside of, local community, or stakeholders, however you want to frame that. So everything from hospitals to collegiate recovery programs, to addiction drop in centers, to child advocacy centers, to a kind of day reporter justice involved probation, parole, like locations track the data. and we did that over the course of about 18 months. And at the end of that, we were able to publish a paper in the Journal of Appalachia, which was the first time that I saw my name on an academic paper that was published and peer reviewed, and proved that there was some efficacy to using lived experience to reduce, overdose deaths and, poor outcomes associated with substance use. When we did that, a lot of other organizations said, "Hey, we want to know what you're doing. have this idea. We'd like to fund you." from there I support about in the high twenties, anywhere between 25 and 30 peer recovery support specialists across the state of West Virginia. we work in our regional jail system. We work in approximately 15 police jurisdictions across our state, embedding the peer with the police officers to reduce stigma and to divert people out of our criminal justice system. We have peers in our recovery houses, we have peers doing street outreach, an initiative called quick response teams, which is a small cadre of individuals with lived experience, at least for us, it is that responds to overdose calls within 72 hours of an overdose and tries to, get that person on a path towards health and wellness.

So looking through Maslow's hierarchy of needs, they may not be ready for treatment, but if they could, I don't know, have a roof over their head the next meal and feel safe and have some social support, maybe at that point they could consider treatment. So since 2018, I've been working with my local health department, Montegito County health department in reducing, unintentional overdose deaths in my, area of the state. So, that's like the second iteration of our company. The third iteration, me and some of my friends, eventually, graduated from undergraduate and graduate school and started to become licensed, counselors and decided that it was time to open behavioral health. I also witnessed through COVID that it wasn't just individuals experiencing substance use disorder that were being impacted with, towards fulfilling their purpose in life, but there's a lot of mental health concerns we deal with in the state of West Virginia, from economic impact to depression, anxiety, you name it. we don't have the great numbers when it comes to, social determinants of health. we opened a licensed behavioral health center and it provides, It has a registered dietitian, has peer recovery support specialists, has supportive counselors, and we're not just focused on substance use disorder.

In fact, when I started the program, I said, will we take individuals with SUD? We will, but the primary focus is on every barrier towards, person living a self directed, fully fulfilling life. anxiety, depression, bipolar, disorders, gambling disorder. all of the things that prevent a person from having the life that they want. We as an organization want to meet them where they're at and help them reach whatever their goals are.

Chris Langley: Goodness me. So you've got three different services, and you're providing many different, services for, substance misuse and mental health as well. and this is something you've just grown over the last few years. you've just stepped it up with what's needed in the community.

Jon Dower: WVSL solutions open September 11th of 2013. So we just celebrated our 11th year in operation in September of 24. So we're going on 12 years of operations. So yeah, we grew from a couple of people sitting alone in a room together, trying to figure this whole thing out. To an organization that's in approximately eight or nine counties of my 55 county state, but our tentacles from those counties reach most counties in the state of West Virginia and beyond.

Chris Langley: Goodness me. Obviously there's a lot of challenges in the work that you do, Jon. So what were some of the things that you came across that were particularly difficult to overcome and how did you overcome them as the executive director?

Jon Dower: freezing, federal aid. I don't know that I've overcome that one quite yet.

had about 24 hours to consider that. but certainly some of the barriers that you experience is a lot of this is not. sustainable funding. you may start an initiative, it may be novel, it may have a lot of efficacy.

You may be able to research it and show the outcome data saying this intervention works. However, grant funding is fickle. whether you're getting it from, the federal government, whether you're getting it from the state government, whether you're getting it through a private foundation, they all want you to find some way to sustain this on your own dollar. Unfortunately, substance use disorder and multimillionaires do not come hand in hand. Not that it never happens, but it's not over, overabundance or over too high of a prevalence of people with multimillion dollars. They tend to be indigent. I think one of the struggles is just overall finding sustainability. I look at how do you overcome that, by berating your funding, by looking at ways of not just relying on grant funds to keep a program going, but looking at doing fundraisers and raising donations, to look at like social enterprises that may be able to throw off some funding above and beyond their cost to operate. That type of entity. At one point we had a construction company called Reintegrate Appalachia that was under my umbrella that did a lot of construction work until some of the management got better opportunities and went above and beyond and we needed to dissolve it. just for the simple fact of we didn't have the infrastructure.

Like I'm good at a lot of things. Building a house and a deck is not one of them, nor does anyone want me to build them a deck? yeah, if you have anxiety, I can fix that. If you have a rafter that's falling, I'm not your guy. so I think you look at being very creative. understanding that it takes everyone.

And I truly mean that to tackle not just the substance use epidemic we have across the country, but the overall mental health issues that we face. This isn't just a mental health counselor or social worker that needs to intervene to fix this. This is community. That has to jump in. This is the faith based section of our community.

This is employers willing to give individuals a chance. this is, neighbors taking care of neighbors. it really is about building a ship and trying to sail it at the same time. And while I'm a risk adverse person, I'm crazy enough to try to build the ship and sail it at the same time.

Chris Langley: I love it. Absolutely amazing. Jon, you mentioned earlier some of your committees that you're on, and I'd just like to ask about, you're the Chair in the Governor's Council of Substance Abuse and Preventative Subcommittee in West Virginia. Can you explain to us about this and what you're doing for the state?

Jon Dower: Sure. I was just to be fair, I resigned that about, eight months ago. And I'll talk about that in a minute, but I'll give you a little insight into that. So the governor's council on substance misuse and prevention in West Virginia was an initiative that was sparked by a governor to say, "Hey, we have all these different levels of expertise.

We have law enforcement. We have first responders. We have pregnant and postpartum care. We have policy." So they devised this idea of having several subcommittees that created, the Governor's Council. And each subcommittee had a very specific, carve out of addiction care that they specialized in and could develop a plan for.

So for me, I was the chair of, the committee that was on lived experience. So with lived experience, we really did a lot of listening sessions across the state to identify what do people in that community. believe is needed, and then to go back and develop a plan or a framework or a, action plan of how are we going to tackle these issues in an adaptive way that produces the best outcomes for West Virginians. 2020 until mid 2024, we're going I was, on a committee with a whole bunch of other people across the state with lived experience, developing a plan of action from the view or the lens of people that have survived substance use disorder and found recovery, of how do we help the next generation of people experiencing substance use disorder have a better outcome or a better chance at an outcome than we did. and I would love to say we developed a plan and handed it over and somebody else turned that action plan into action, but all too often with a small state and limited resources, we often as a committee were then, tasked all right, now execute it. doing things like, my agency, but it was from the governor's Council was the first one to implement an RKN vending machine inside of the state of West Virginia to provide 24 seven access to life saving opioid reversal medication, to integrating things like true informed consent.

I know that's something that was, I left to the next president, or the next chair of the committee as I left, but I know it's continuing to be worked on cause I get to attend some of those meetings. Doing true informed consent, because you ask somebody that's withdrawing from a substance to consent to all this new treatment that they know nothing about while they're withdrawing from psychoactive substances, I think it's grossly unfair to expect they have the cognitive capacity to understand what they're signing. So looking at that, giving informed choice, really giving autonomy back to individuals that are experiencing substance use disorder as they go through addiction care in West Virginia. We've made a huge impact on that. Trying to bring back family services into addictions care in West Virginia is an important thing to me and was an important thing on our subcommittee. making sure that we were not working in silos. In West Virginia, unfortunately, a lot of us, fight over the same bucket of money, as organizations. So what it really did was create silos where one organization was doing something. And if they just partner with another organization across town or maybe down the street, you would have better outcomes, but everyone was a little trepidatious to do that because if you start working together, can just give those organizations less money, because now they're sharing the work across two organizations rather than one. And we really strived hard to bring organizations together and to have the capacity across organizations to work together and think about it less about what is in it for the organization and think more about what is in it for the population we're serving. however, in May of last year, I was elected to, West Virginia's Opioid Abatement Board, which in West Virginia, we were awarded approximately 1.2 billion dollars from, pharmaceutical companies, their middlemen, distributors, pharmacies, et cetera. Uh, in West Virginia, we're unique in that, we're a completely private foundation. If you look at these foundations across the country, most of them are integrated into the state government. attorney general saw it differently. He was now our governor. he saw it differently and wanted this money to be outside of government. So he created a private foundation that gets about 72. 5 percent of the total resources. so the 1. 2 billion we should get in the 700 million plus range. another 20 some percent, 22 and a half, something like that goes directly to cities, counties, and other municipalities that were directly impacted by, opioid use and 3 percent is held by the attorney general's office, um, for their expenses to, do the courts and such. So how they developed the board is 11 people. our states broke into six regions. so each region, was elected by their local municipalities to have a representative. And then there's five individuals that are appointed by. the governor. So I was lucky enough to be one of the individuals that was elected by my local municipality to serve on that board. because of that, and because of potential conflicts of interest, I resigned from the governor's council. Cause it could be, you could be put in a situation where you develop the plan, and then you look at a foundation asking them to fund the plan. And I didn't want, to put my constituents in a situation where they had to consider my integrity. I thought it was important for me to step away from the governor's council and really look at using my knowledge of being boots on the ground, for the last. 12 plus years and use that to where should funding go the quickest for the biggest impact and the best return on our investment from the foundation. And I'm thrilled to say, sitting here less than a year on the board, we have awarded over 30 million back to West Virginians to impact opioid use and substance use across their state. Something I'm extremely proud of.

Chris Langley: Yeah, you should be. Congratulations on that Jon. That's incredible. My next question was going to be how is West Virginia coping with the opioid crisis? And I think you've given a pretty good answer to that.

Jon Dower: we could always do better. I'm a true believer that one death is too many deaths. that's a little utopian. We certainly have areas that are better developed in West Virginia that afford Individuals experiencing SUD with better access to care. Not only is there access to care issues, there's economic issues, job opportunities, there is everything from that to telecommunications.

if we had broadband, available across the state, treatment providers may be able to use telehealth to access our whole population. And our whole population is big. The state of West Virginia is like 1. 7, 1. 8 million people as a whole. However, I would venture to guess a larger percentage than any of us would not have access to high speed internet, or more than an hour drive from a treatment provider. oftentimes our, lower socioeconomic status, not always, but in some areas of the state, the more rural areas, economic opportunity isn't readily available, despair spurs the possibility of substance use that really is a nasty cause and effect hamster wheel that we have to do a better job to, to get off the wheel. And, I think we're trying. as a state have seen a fair, fairly nice reduction in overdose deaths in our state. and I think that comes down to a whole lot of amazing people in the state of West Virginia that really care about West Virginians and try very hard, often overworked and underpaid. To make an impact. I think some of these federally funded, grant funded, that West Virginia has been lucky enough to receive awards on have shown some efficacy like quick response teams, like hospital based peers inside of emergency rooms and getting them on life saving medication really quickly upon intake into an emergency department. I think those, some of those novel approaches have made an impact, but say that there's, more work and a lot more work to do would be understating. where we currently are at. we're trying. we have too many people in incarceration, especially for substance use disorder, it causes an economic burden, the taxpayers of our state. we don't have the economic opportunity that we want. we really are multifaceted in not just addressing substance use disorder, but really addressing social determinants of health and intergenerational addiction. If we want to curb that, those are our two things. It's not necessarily focusing on addiction.

It's focusing on hope and opportunity, and it's supporting our children that are impacted by substance use disorder so they don't repeat the cycle 20 years later.

Chris Langley: Yeah, that's so important. I love what you mentioned about the emergency response team as well because that's, a very new initiative. we did something similar in the UK, but you're the first person to tell me about this on the, on these podcasts. And that, you're saving lives all the time with that.

Jon Dower: Listen, my friends are saving lives. I am the cathe guy, l call myself the Wizard of Oz. I'm the guy behind the curtain trying to build the system. I sit here today while legitimately 30 of my staff right now, I know are talking to someone helping that person save their own life. don't own those wins. those individuals own those wins, but I can tell you, I work with an incredible amount of heroes. And a company that I'm truly honored to be the figurehead of.

Chris Langley: I can tell, Jon. I can tell. when we first met on our first call, you mentioned to me about the town of Kermit and, in West Virginia and the opioid crisis. Can you tell our audience about this case and how widespread it got? Because it sounded

Jon Dower: so

huge.

is, it's, and I'll misquote numbers. I just know I will. Current West Virginia is a very, small rural city, or town maybe, in the Southern part of West Virginia that had a very small pharmacy. and was known for, during the first wave of the opioid epidemic, an incredible of opioids through their community. they were literally millions of pills, sent to the community. this is, a town of 3000 people. in a town of 3000 people, you're having approximately 30 million opioid pills delivered to that. little town in the course of a year. and no red flags being raised, not the DEA, not the middleman pharmaceutical companies, not the actual producers, the pharmaceutical companies themselves, shipping 30 million pills.

somebody should have seen something, but instead what was happening is, they were physicians that were, benefiting from writing prescriptions. There were individuals experiencing substance use disorder going to doctors and saying, I have an ailment. of them may, some of them may not have, and received access to an opioid prescription. And you had pharmacists that probably knew that these medications weren't medically necessary, and the chances of high prevalence of addiction should we continue to fill these prescriptions. And instead of somebody stepping in and doing the right thing, We filled 30 million prescriptions or 30 million pills worth of prescriptions of opioids in a town of 3, 000 individuals

Chris Langley: Over a year.

Jon Dower: over a year.

Chris Langley: How did, who, how did it get stopped? I

Jon Dower: my forte.

Chris Langley: sure.

Jon Dower: probably talked to the, Federal District, Southern District of West Virginia. I think they could probably give you a

better idea, but I can tell you that you started to see these pill mills pop up on DEA's radar. You started to see some changes from the federal level in, in amounts of opioid prescriptions, and morphine equivalents that were allowed to be sent, to different locations without, Rational reasons for having that high of a dosage going out. And I think you started to see really the poor outcomes of addiction that all started to raise the red flag higher and higher until, some of these places got shut down, the doctor's offices, and then the pharmacies really, didn't do a great service to West Virginia in those moments.

Chris Langley: it must have wreaked havoc for the state.

Jon Dower: certainly did.

Chris Langley: million pills.

Jon Dower: so to talk a little, we're blue collar, we're a blue collar state. We're not a white collar state. we work hard, especially in creating the energy infrastructure across our country. So one of our number one exports is coal keeps the lights on. It's what we say in our state.

It's what's on a lot of our license plates. coal is very dangerous work, coal mining, because it's underground for the most part. It's not above ground. and is very hard and taxing on the body. So when individuals get lower back problems or knee pain, it was rightfully hard work can produce, poor physical ailments. but when you, you have things like the joint commission adding pain as the fifth vital sign, when you have academics, peer reviewed journals, that says Oxycontin. isn't an addictive, it has a very low addiction prevalence. when you have pharmaceutical companies that say, Hey, this can solve your patient's problem and do so safely.

And you have doctors that are making a lot of money off of it. you create a recipe that really looks like the opioid epidemic that we face across the United States.

Chris Langley: And this was occurring in the first wave of the opioid crisis .

Jon Dower: Even beofre, if you look back at the data, the first journals were in the 1980s that, that were starting to look at and, the joint commission comes in the 80s and 90s and starts making changes to vital signs and Oxycontin, providing their data that they're not addictive. it's 80s, 90s until the early 2000s that this is all coming about.

right as our country moved away from stimulants. the most prevalent, psychoactive substance that's not socially acceptable, i. e. alcohol and tobacco. and you start moving away from crack cocaine and powder cocaine. You start to see an influx of prescription opioids and that's really the first wave. of the opioid epidemic that we're probably in the fourth wave of right now.

Chris Langley: thank you for explaining that to me, because I've heard some stories about Kermit, but I've never had a full description like that. That's just,

Jon Dower: you if you google Kermit West Virginia opioid, you're gonna get a laundry list of articles about it.

Chris Langley: yeah, that's just speechless hearing about it. I really am. It's just tragic. Something else I mentioned earlier, Jon, you're teaching at West Virginia Wesleyan to teach the next generation of West Virginians how to treat addiction adequately at the graduate level.

How long have you been working there for?

Jon Dower: So for Wesleyan, I just, I legitimately just started. I started in January and they're building an addiction certificate. So the nice thing about a certificate program, it's not a multi year program. it can be not just taken by counselors, but you could look at people in criminal justice system. You can look at nurses, anyone that wants really specific training, just an addiction to compliment a different degree that they have, the certificate program would afford them access to it. The other nice thing about Wesleyan is, While it's a private institution, it doesn't necessarily have to follow, all the, bureaucratic roles of larger institutions. so they can do service delivery that's asynchronous or synchronous and across the country, meaning, I can teach from the comfort of this chair in my basement, to students all across the country, but especially in West Virginia. So when I look at teaching both at West Virginia University and in talking about teaching at Wesleyan, I would love to. I would love to be able to do more than I do. I would stop before saying I'd like to clone myself cause I don't think I could deal with me like another one of me, let alone multiple more of me. but when I look at it, in a great week, in a week, I'm pushing as hard as I can, I may see 40, 50 individuals and don't get me wrong. There's 40 or 50 individuals. that's pretty profound. I'm honored enough to get to spend time and provide space and help towards their healing. when I go into a classroom and there's 40 students, and I teach 40 students for that hour, and I know that those 40 students are going to go on to careers in the helping professions. And instead of my one hour being spent with one individual, My one hour spent with 40 individuals that would go on to spend their one hour a piece.

So my one hour is now 40. And when I do that across multiple classes, I may interface with at West Virginia University, somewhere between 120 and 160 students a semester. so 300 students a year. if, I look at that and then extrapolate that across 40, uh, 40 hours a week, we're talking 1, 200 hours of help for my state, my community. And the honor of being able to do that at the graduate level across the whole country at Wesleyan allows me to leave a legacy. and to me, that's important. I'm not going to do. To best of my knowledge, I'm not going to do anything that, that truly changes the world. But what I can say that I've done that I've made an impact that's changed a mom. She didn't have to hear that her son died or daughter died. I have worked with people who have been reunited with their children so they don't have to go home tonight, not having mom or dad there and living in foster care, living in a group home. They get to go home to mom and dad. I have helped individuals that testifying in court that we're going to go back to a jail cell and not receive care and instead go find adequate treatment that have multiple years of recovery.

Now those are their wins. They're not my wins, but it's really humbling and quite an honor have played a sentence or two in one chapter of their lives that may be the pivotal chapter and may turn them into, the best the trajectory towards the best version of themselves to live wholly full self directed lives. and what more can we ask for out of this thing that we call life then to have something full and find love and find purpose and have hope and have a better tomorrow than we have today. and that's what teaching does for me. It allows me that legacy. It allows me that ripple effect. It allows me to know that the pain that I experienced through. Two decades of substance use isn't in vain. It was preparing me to help the next generation help prevent this in another generation. Um, I have an eight year old named Cooper. I don't want Cooper to live up and grow up in a West Virginia like I grew up in. don't want him to have to attend or have the capacity to attend as many funerals as I have, since I have, grown up in the state. we're not talking five or 10 or

I,

also don't want them to hear what I heard. when I went to treatment, I was talking slick, in one of the groups. And one of the people with lived experience grabbed me after the, group had ended. And they said, I need you to buy a suit. I didn't really understand what they were talking about. And I was like, a suit? What do I need a suit for? They said, because you're either going to wear it a lot, meaning you're going to go to funerals or you're going to get buried in it, but those are your two choices. I don't want my son to have to choose between. Wearing a suit to a funeral or wearing a suit to his casket. I want him to have whatever future he wants to have. And if my life pursuit can be paving, better foundation so that he has economic opportunity, so that he has hope, so that he can find his own purpose without substance use being the barrier to that, that to me is, what this is all about.

Chris Langley: I, I dunno what to say to that, Jon. That was incredible. it's so powerful what you are saying today. It really is, and I'm sure people listening to this are gonna be just in awe of what you are doing for your community and what you've done in your past history and, what you are doing now and for your students as well, how you spoke about your students.

Would you say with your students, you've been doing this for quite a while and you just started at Wesleyan in January, but would you say there's been an increase in students wishing to learn about addiction treatments, especially since the opioid crisis took hold?

Jon Dower: Yeah, I think it's twofold. I think there's a lot of individuals that are. hItting into post secondary education. They grew up with addiction in their home and their loved ones may still be alive and they don't know how to deal with it. This is not training that you receive in middle school and high school.

"How do I deal with my mom that has an alcohol problem or has an opioid problem?" Or, "my parents incarcerated, what do I do?" So I think of the population comes because They want to fix themselves and they want to learn how to interface with their own family. And I think there's other ones, other individuals that just have the heart and the spirit to be of service to others, that they see. don't get me wrong. helping professions in West Virginia is not giving you a mansion on the hill and a Maserati to drive. In fact, if you look at, the general pay is for helping professions in West Virginia versus our adjacent states, we're, grossly underpaid. so I think part of it has to be purpose. And I, think, call the helping professions, the field of the broken, I say it partially in jest, partially true. we're trying to find, "Hey, we went through this experience. What does it mean in our lives? How do we turn it? around. How do we take our pain and do something different with it?" And, I, the generation growing up is not being, not been able to dodge impact of opioids, whether it was in their house or not. We all know somebody in West Virginia that has, you know, an addiction or has been to jail or has a loved one that's died or a friend or a cousin or, so for some of us, it's our parents.

For some of it's our siblings. For some of it, it's our children. and I go into teaching, I'm mindful of that. I'm mindful that I have a group of people that they have problems outside of the classroom. They're not just trying to learn about addiction. They're trying to learn about life. These are individuals in human development that are still finding who they are.

that's, I was in my thirties. I can only imagine what I was like in my twenties trying to find out who I was. And at the same time, they're, trying to succeed. And like I talked about Frankie Tack. There's a lady at my graduate level named Margaret Glenn. Without those two ladies, I certainly wouldn't have got a master's degree.

Okay. I certainly would have not got Advanced Addiction Counselor certifications. I certainly would not have pursued a license as a counselor, which is several years postgraduate to acquire. gave me their extra time and energy and effort. To help mold and shape me, as the horrible, pot of clay that I was into something that was better than what they found it. And I feel like if somebody is going to afford me the opportunity to teach at the university level, I have a fiduciary duty to do that for somebody else. To spend the extra time to identify the student that has tears in their eyes when you're talking about overdose and to have a conversation with them for 15 minutes after that class about what's going on in their lives and how did that impact them and what's that all about? because all too often we just walk through life. We were not present. We're not in the moment. We're not seeing how our actions are affecting other people. But when we do, when we take a moment, when we pause, when we observe, when we don't just make this thing about ourselves, but we make this thing about something greater than ourselves, we have the complete and total capacity to, totally change someone's day. and I go to a mutual aid support meeting. Uh, it's kind of tradition to hug people. we're not handshake people in my 12 step meetings we hug. And if somebody doesn't give you a hug, it's almost an unspoken insult. but I'll say this never underestimate the power of a hug. It truly can turn around somebody's day, that connection, that closeness, that intimacy. For some people, that hug may be the only closeness, encouragement, intimacy they're going to get that entire day, and it's a profound impact when it's you, and all you need is that hug. so for my students, I don't necessarily wanna be the hug, but I want to be the moment. I want to, I wanna provide the intrinsic motivation that I have to change people's lives into the minds of the next generation.

Chris Langley: That can hopefully inspire them to go out and be the best version of themselves and help change other people's lives too.

I can see you're going to be a lecturer that these students are going to remember for their whole professional career.

Jon Dower: I hope

Chris Langley: I'm sure.

it will be, yeah, it will be

Jon Dower: sure some of them will as I cannot believe they let that guy in the front of the classroom teach. but at the same time, when it to addiction, is my wake up until oftentimes very close to going to bed. there's very little time that I spend in aspirational pursuits.

It is often revolved around. "What can I do to help my staff? What can I do to help West Virginia? What can I help do to help my students? and hopefully what can I do to help myself be a better person when I go to bed than when I was, when I woke up this morning?"

Chris Langley: Goodness me. one other thing that you do, Jon, I can't believe we're, we've gone through this podcast and we've been, speaking for nearly an hour and you, do so much. One other thing that you do, you are the NAADAC President of West Virginia. So can you tell us about this? What making a, what makes becoming a member of this organization so important if you enter the addiction treatment profession.

Jon Dower: Absolutely. So NAADAC is a professional membership organization. So from a national perspective, They're dealing with everything from identifying what kind of base nine knowledge should an addictions professional have. And then how do we gauge that knowledge? What type of education should they have? What kind of standardized tests prove to the general public that, Hey, this person actually has the.

wherewithal and the knowledge to treat my loved one for addiction. NAADAC does that piece. They provide the education piece and they provide, the certification tests. but what they also do is deal with policy. At the, and NAADAC does it at the federal level. So they're inter interfacing in Washington with Congress and with a lot of the, federal level funders like the substance abuse and Mental Health services administration called SAMHSA, or the CDC Center for Disease Control, their National Institutes of Health, research, arms of our federal government and ensuring that the funding is available for individuals experiencing substance use disorder. When you get down to the state level. Every state faces the substance use challenge differently. They have different infrastructures, they have, maybe different numbers of schools, or, even different numbers of professionals that work in the space. Being the state president, We support our membership.

So we have hundreds of members in the state of West Virginia that are addiction and prevention professionals working in everything from treatment centers to jails, to across the board, you name it, if it's somehow healthcare or healthcare adjacent. We have addiction and prevention professionals working there, so they're very, Important needs. We need to continue to educate our population. So one of the arms of what our state chapter, we call it WVAAP. which is the West Virginia Association of of Addiction and Prevention Professionals. what we do is we provide some education. do prevention professionals have the most up to date education on the best practices in prevention to prevent addiction from ever happening? and then from the addictions professionals, what are the best evidence based strategies? produce the best outcomes? What, how do you behave ethically? We're providing the trainings to our population, but equally as importantly, we're doing a lot of policy work. Uh, I always say, I'm a pretty apolitical person. I have kind of values on both sides, but local politics is always going to be the thing that impacts you the most. It's not the stuff at the federal level for the most part, albeit I shouldn't say that on, today's date,

but naturally local politics is going to impact you more, So when we, West Virginia, our state Congress convenes for about two months every year, across those two months, incredible amount of new pieces of legislation come out, some that are somewhat beneficial to, people experiencing substance use disorder or those that treat it. And oftentimes a lot of very, we'll say not my approach. to policy that would impact, addiction, or addiction professionals. So what we do as a, an organization work with a lobbyist to get with the right politicians to educate them on what addiction really looks like and how do we treat it appropriately based off of research and try to support the bills that would make it a better West Virginia people trying to get into recovery and try to kill a lot of those bills that people under jails for the rest of their lives and, prevent access to things like harm reduction, that prevent access to, treatment as an alternative, that prevent access to alternative sentencing, really to provide individuals the chance at hope, the chance at purpose in the future. As an association, really, we come together and we're a volunteer board. I do not get paid to be a president. There, there's 12 of us on there. and that includes everything from the president down to the other boards of directors. And we're all collectively coming together to really make a huge impact on what the framework of addiction care looks like and supporting the next generation of professionals to know how to be the best version. of a prevention or addiction professional in West Virginia.

Chris Langley: So if someone was a student and they're just about to qualify, Jon, would you recommend that they contact their local NAADAC?

Jon Dower: I do, I

would.

You learn so much through networking. and it's not just about how do I become the best addiction professional. Go to those conferences, meet those people. You may find yourself in a whole different job five months from now because of someone you met at one of those conferences. You're certainly going to get the best education from NAADAC, from the NAADAC affiliates when it comes to addiction care.

I graduated from a master's program in counseling. I got one class over the course of 12 weeks on addiction. I'm a licensed mental health counselor in the state of West Virginia. As with that license, I should be able to treat addiction regardless of what other education that I have. Now, luckily for the people that I interface with, I've spent thousands of hours of training and supervision to get advanced standing credentials so that you know I can treat addiction. But if I had never done any of that with that license, I'm saying, or my state's saying to me, you have the capacity to treat a condition that you learned about for 12 weeks inside of a classroom and may have never interfaced with that population once. But as long as you have a license in West Virginia, you can treat it. Some states are different. West Virginia does not afford a specific license for addictions counselors. just general counselor, psychology, social work, without the capacity to need additional training and addiction care. So without NAADAC affiliates, without the credentials that come from it, you are really playing Russian roulette to a large extent. to any of your viewers, if you had a heart attack, would you want to go to a podiatrist? not. you probably don't want the foot doctor taking care of the ticker. I have addiction, I don't want to go to a general surgeon. I don't want to go to a cardiologist. I want to go to somebody that spent their time and effort and shows efficacy and a proven model that they can treat the condition that I have. without organizations like WVAAP in West Virginia, without national chapters like NAADAC, we wouldn't have the capacity to say to the general public, you We know how to treat addiction, and if you come and receive services from us, you can rest assured that you're getting the most up to date care that you possibly can get.

Chris Langley: that's it's a fantastic organization. I've been learning so much about it since becoming a member myself and hearing the stories of different people from different areas about NAADAC. It's just an incredible organization. Their conference last year just looked fantastic.

Jon Dower: it was great. I was in DC for it. I was lucky enough to be there. and Terrence, our new executive director is a wonderful individual that has a lot of energy and know how to take us to the next step as a national organization and truly I'm honored to be the president. I'm the president for about 10 more months, and, then I'll hand it over to another amazing colleague on the board that I know is going to take it and run with it.

And, we're in good hands in West Virginia. We really are.

Chris Langley: I can tell. I really can. It's just wonderful talking to you today, Jon. It really is. It's very inspiring. I'm just going to ask you the last couple of questions. And I ask all my guests this because, why do you think it is in this day and age that stigma of addiction or mental health is still problematic for someone who wants to enter treatment?

It seems such an issue still. Yeah.

Jon Dower: So I think it's multifold. I think, if you, look at models of addiction, We're li we're living in a time where have, and maybe everyone experiences this, where there's a bunch of different generations of people that are together and they all look at, and, what's appropriate and what's not appropriate vastly different.

If you asked my, my. If they were still alive, what do they think about addiction? Versus if you asked a teenager, what do they think about addiction? You would get vastly different responses. I think we come from time where, parents and grandparents at this point often were not encouraged to talk about their feelings or their emotions in our culture.

We were taught that we deal with our family problems at home. so we didn't talk about the problem. Where addiction started from, I think, another facet. of, that is the models of addiction. I think a lot of people see, still see, despite the overwhelming scientific evidence, that this is a disease, there is a well larger percentage of the population than I would like, that still believes this is a moral failing. That people have the choice and they can stop at any time that they want. they're choosing to partake in psychoactive substance use. And, I'm not going to bore your viewers with the neurobiology of addiction, but, their brains are just wired differently. They have genetic predisposition.

They have a mesolimbic system that's just wired differently than a population. but I think that's part of it is if you. If you invest in the moral model of addiction, then it's your fault. And if it's your fault, that, that fault comes with guilt and shame. Americans do not like to admit that we're wrong or that we've done something wrong. So asking to, to say, Hey, not only have I done something wrong, but I've done something so self destructive that it's ruined my life and the lives of people around me is a hard pill to swallow and then take it one step further when they go to, healthcare professionals. they're looked at as less than they're looked at as the, the air quotes.

And I would not use this term just to be fair, but the junkies and the degenerates and the people on the fringes of society, when they're going and saying, I need help and they're told you're less than who wants to experience that day in and day out. I know I don't. So when you're going to the people that are supposed to provide you help, and you're told you're, too much of a degenerate to get help, create the atmosphere of stigma. I, I've talked to, I've talked to classes of nurses. I, did one for nurse practitioners last year and had a very long, eloquent argument with a female that said that Narcan should be two strikes and you're out. if you use na. This is a nurse about to graduate as a, registered nurse in the state of West Virginia. And she said after two doses of Narcan, you shouldn't get a third. It should be, it should be Darwinism. survival of the fittest. If you can't figure it out after two doses of Narcan, you should die. And my response to that is, if you have two heart attacks, should they not shock you a third time? should, going to that fast food restaurant and it's your third trip there, despite knowing that fast food is not healthy, nourishing meals, should you be, not given diabetic treatment because you're overweight and you have type two diabetes? should, we? should women not have to color their hair because they aged and they lost the color in their hair? No. are normal experiences that people go through. And I think stigma revolves in I'm right and you're wrong. And we are a very adversarial society as much as I don't like to say that. the good part about, idea of being capitalistic is this idea that anyone can succeed. But when I look at that, if you're a winner, there has to be a loser. And we've taken that kind of process in our society. And we've looked at, Hey, if you have an addiction, you're the loser. And if I stay away from you, I'm the winner. we really have to change that messaging to. We're one of community. We're one that takes care of each other. We're the ones that see, Hey, you had a bad day.

How do I support you? Hey, we're not going to judge you about the worst moment and the worst day, and the worst second of your life. We're going to talk about the person we see in front of us rather than trying to compartmentalize them into a box and call them a drug addict or an alcoholic or whatever, Really poor, non person first language you want to use. Maybe if we treated people with dignity and respect and, afforded them some grace, we would have a little less addiction in our country.

Chris Langley: With the, Discussion you had with the student, Jon. Did you see a shift in her attitude or understanding after you spoke to her?

Jon Dower: think she somewhat questioned it, but, when I have those experiences, I never questioned where they came from. So my follow up question was, so who in your life experienced addiction? And she did. she had a family member that treated her poorly. And was estranged from. So you're not just dealing with that nurse and on your face, you're dealing with your addiction as you're coming, asking for help. There, there is, there's this idea of maybe just, maybe she's telling me what she wanted to tell her mom. There's counter transference that's going on there, where it's not about me. It's about her own life experiences. And in that moment, I didn't judge her for it. I just ask a whole bunch of questions.

Why would you say things that way? like what, why does that impact you so severely? And when it comes down to it, she's hurt and I get it. I've hurt a whole bunch of people throughout my addiction. I'm trying not to do that today. I'm trying to help other people not do that today. but what, I can say is we have a huge untapped valuable resource in our country and it's people in recovery. And the sooner we realize that if we tap into that resource, we could find some of that economic prosperity that the whole country says they want to feel.

Chris Langley: absolutely. Jon, last couple of questions. I ask all my guests this because I get some really interesting and varied answers, but can you tell me your opinion of harm reduction and how it can play such a role in recovery?

Jon Dower: Yeah, so harm reduction to me is one of those, what, is your definition of recovery? everyone's is going to be different. Everyone's definition of harm reduction is going to be different. I look at it from an academic lens, so the idea of harm reduction is just to provide a non judgmental atmosphere. so let me extrapolate that on, that a little more. so think, think of a scale with two buckets on each side. If I go to someone and they judge me for my addiction, it's not likely for me to change my behavior. If we've learned anything, you can't scare addiction out of someone. You can't incarcerate addiction out of someone. In fact, you get outcomes. You get much worse outcomes when you take that approach. The idea of harm reduction is not going to judge you for the behavioral pattern that you do. I'm going to treat you with dignity and respect. And every time I'm meeting with that person, I'm putting some currency on one side of the scale. And I can't tell you when the scale is going to flip and we're going to get the side that says, hey, I want a different way of living. I'm no longer willing to live the way that I'm living. I want something different. But I can say when I treat people with dignity and respect, I'm putting some currency in the side that may provide them the space to consider a different way of life than they're currently living. harm reduction. harm reduction, more lives are going to be lost. And it's not just people experiencing substance use disorder. Believe it or not, people with substance use disorder, this is gonna, this is gonna be very controversial, they have sex with people that don't have substance use disorder.

And they pass along things like diseases, like HIV, hepatitis C, STDs or STIs, depending on how you want to frame that. Harm reduction just doesn't affect the population with a behavioral pattern. It affects our community as a whole. So, for me, the idea of harm reduction is how do I show up for someone?

How am I present? How do I listen in a nonjudgmental way? How do I, instead of, Projecting my worldview and my personal values. I don't know. I maybe consider what their worldview is and their personal values and what they want to accomplish how do I just have a conversation with them about what does that look like for you and how can I help and what do you want your life to look like rather than you having to fit into a societal context of what I believe is right. Harm reduction at the end of the day saves lives. Now, is it one of those red button words? I 100 percent believe it is. oftentimes in the state for it to be palatable to some of our legislature, you, can't use the word harm reduction. You have to reframe it in things like opioid overdose mitigation or, something that means the same thing with slightly different language. However, I do harm reduction on a daily basis, and it's not, harm reduction is such a stigmatized word. doesn't just mean addiction, so if I'm overeating by 5, 000 calories, and tomorrow I overeat by 4, 500 calories, it is harm reduction. I am taking in less harm than I was today. So this idea that we own it and the addiction side of things is bizarre to me.

We don't by any means. We were not that smart. We're not that novel. Harm reduction exists in many other behavioral patterns and processes. evidence is pretty clear that if we integrate harm reduction, a certain percentage of the population that either is not ready for treatment or is treatment resistant, we're going to produce better outcomes by using that approach than by doing treatment as usual and trying to continue to pound that round peg into a square hole.

Chris Langley: yeah, I couldn't agree more with what you just said then. That's an incredible description. I love it. Thank you, Jon. Last couple of questions. Do you have a message for anyone who's listening to this podcast who's going through addiction? What would you say to them?

Jon Dower: I, think I would say to them, I've been there. I can tell you 10, 000 things as to why maybe a different way Might be better for you. but I also remember what it was like to sit in that seat and have somebody talk to me. I probably thought they were as full of shit as you do hearing me say that in my mouth right now. I had a sponsor in my 12 step meeting that told me to write down five of the things that I wanted at one year of recovery. and this was really early in my recovery process he had me folded up and put it in an envelope and, at 30 days, maybe a sobriety when I wrote it and, we opened it up at my year mark and, I did not have huge hopes and dreams at that point. think my dreams were like to have a job, to be able to afford my rent, not have my clothes in a garbage bag. but what I didn't write down is that I would like myself, that I would be able to shave in front of a mirror again. not being disgusted by the person they saw in their reflection. I got the ability to not have to hide. It is exhausting to live separated lives where you have to be a different person for every population you're interfacing with, different person for your girlfriend, then with your family, then with your friend group, then with your employer, like that's an exhausting existence. recovery for me is far beyond my wildest dreams. If you would have told me 13 years ago. That I would have a graduate degree, that I would be teaching at not one, but two different universities, that I would be, the head of a nonprofit organization, that I would own a catering company, that, that's really successful, that I would, be a father. and that I, would wake up every day feeling lucky to go to work cause it really didn't feel like work. I probably would have asked you who your, dealer was cause I would have needed some of whatever you were taking. I can tell you all, of the external stuff comes, all of those things that you have in your head of your hopes and your dreams and your aspirations, they come when you prioritize a recovery process. The biggest. The biggest and most valuable outcomes that have come for me from recovery are all things I can't buy. They're all things inside of self, their self esteem and self worth and integrity and the ability to have compassion for others and to love myself and to be a little less of an asshole most of the time than I was beforehand. I would say to that person, change is possible. you're not the person you were on your worst day. And everything that you have in your mind of what sky is the limit for you. I promise you, you're selling yourself short. I think that's what I would say.

Chris Langley: thank you so much for that, Jon. And, last question I'd like to ask, really important one, but can you tell our listeners how best to contact you and to find your service online?

Jon Dower: Yeah. WVSL Solutions can be found at wvslsolutions.com. So for our state chapter of NAADAC, it is WVAAP.org. We provide everything from how do you become a member to, how do you get education to, how do you get involved in advocacy?

So we're thrilled you were nice enough to have us on the podcast and to be able to talk about. Some really amazing organizations. And I wish I could have had all the people on my board and all the people from my company on here, because I promise you, my story isn't that special. It isn't that unique.

I'm one of many in West Virginia trying to, make an impact and to change this narrative. And it's people like you that are giving us the pen, that are giving us the opportunity to have what we do day in and day out highlighted. cause I'm sick of looking at the news and talking about arrests. and incarcerations and all the poor outcomes and never seeing the person in recovery on the news talking about their 13 years or their marriage or their new job at a university, building a certificate program. need more of that because that emotional impact is really what gives those people watching this, that are experiencing substance use disorder, a chance of saying, "Hey, maybe that could be me too." It sure could have, by all statistical, situations should not have been me, here I am, and if I can do it, there's not a viewer you're watching that couldn't do it too.

Chris Langley: Well Jon, I don't think we could have finished this podcast with any better statement than that, and I'd just like to thank you so much for your time today. You've given us so much of your valuable time, but here in your story. And hearing the work that you've done in the last 13 years of your life and with everything that you've done, it's just, anyone listening to this who isn't inspired, I don't know how, because it's just a wonderful story and it just shows how someone can really progress in life very quickly from, getting to the point where you did to now.

So congratulations to you and it sounds like your state as well is doing some good work.

And it's just lovely to hear that. And, anyway, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Jon.

Jon Dower: Thank you.

Do, do, do, do, do.