Ep52 Addiction Prevention Planting Prevention Seeds

Ep52 Addiction Prevention | Planting Prevention Seeds

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Hi, welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host Chris Langley and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest Nichole Dawsey. Nichole is the Executive Director at the Addiction Prevention Coalition in the state of Alabama. Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, Nichole. It's so good to have you with us today.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.

I really appreciate your time, obviously, and, you're very busy, so let's get straight on with the questions, shall

we? could you tell us about yourself and your journey to becoming the Executive Director at the Addiction Prevention Coalition?

I'm actually new, to the state of Alabama. I moved to Alabama in July of 2024. And, I came into the Addiction Prevention Coalition here in Birmingham as deputy director, which was really great because it gave me the opportunity to learn from, former executive director who had been here for about six years.

even though I'm new to Birmingham and new to APC, I'm not new to the prevention field. before coming to Birmingham, I was a, executive director at a large prevention organization in St. Louis called PreventEd, and I've actually been in prevention of substance use, for 20 years. So that's been my career.

before that I was a middle school teacher. I recognized that there was so much education that needed to happen, but not all of it was going to be given through a report card, right? And so I really got interested in public health and really got interested in this idea of macro education around some things that maybe, the other side of the report card.

that aren't taught in school, but Maybe should be. And that's what led me to public health and ultimately that's what led me to prevention, fast forward 20 years and, I'm here in Alabama.

Goodness me. so when you, started in Alabama, you actually still worked with the Executive Director there as a handover.

That's

right.

How,

how useful was that?

Oh my gosh. I wish that everybody had the opportunity to do that. and she and I talked all the time and kind of joked and said, thank goodness we like each other because transition and change is hard. and Carrie, that's the former executive director. She and I are very similar.

We're both Enneagram ones, if that means anything to anybody listening, we're very similar and yet we're very different. But we, forged, I think, a pretty strong friendship. I think that's pretty palpable, when people are around us. we genuinely like each other. she grew APC, tremendously.

And so there's a lot that I have been able to learn from her in terms of like, Why the growth, what necessitated it, how they chose to grow. also, is a master at building connections and as a transplant to Birmingham, that's something that was just mission critical, was to transfer those relationships.

And I will add that I did the same thing when I left St. Louis, you Want the luxury of having a transition time. when it makes sense, right? But I knew very quickly it was time for me to go because the new incoming person had it together. and Carrie knew when it was time for her to go. So she actually bumped up her retirement just a little bit because she knew I was ready, just I knew, the person in St.

Louis was ready and we still talk all the time. that's the beauty of it, right? It's like we talk as friends, but also sometimes I'll get an email and I'm just like, what is this? who is this person? and I'll call her and she picks up.

That must be a big weight off your shoulders as well, and knowing that you're taken over from such an established leader as well before. That must have been,

yeah, that must have been amazing.

It also helps the team, feel comfortable and our donors and our board and our volunteers. Because as I said, change is hard. It's necessary, but it's hard. And a relationship between the two of us allows folks, I think, to exhale and say okay, things might be changing, but they're not all going to change at once.

a lot of mutual respect here, and I think that allows everyone to breathe a little easier.

Because change can really bring a lot of anxiety to staff teams certainly as well. I've been through that myself, so I know exactly where you're coming from. who do you work with within the community?

it's so hard because I think the, answer that I want to give is everyone. And yes, that's true. But I think that, there are some groups that we particularly focus in on. one is educators, and school administrators. A huge part of what we do at APC is school based prevention.

so we are going into health classes or we're going in supporting counselors who might want some additional help in delivering some content. so educators are a huge of our puzzle. And yes, of course, kids, but we can't get to the kids if we don't have the respect and trust of the educators.

So that's a real primary population for us. Another primary population for us are families. who maybe have a loved one who is going through active addiction, or maybe, who has passed away. we offer family support groups twice a week. One is Christian focused and one is secular. And that was really the purpose of our founding in 2007 was to be a resource for families who had a loved one, who were struggling and they just didn't really know where to turn.

so that's really been a cornerstone of what we do. for, it has been since our founding. piece of the puzzle are just community organizations, right? So that's everything from, Law enforcement officers who want a little more information or want some help with mental health first aid training.

Maybe it's churches that want to be a Narcan distribution site, but don't exactly know how to go about that. We can assist them. it is a neighborhood watch group that is really concerned about their community and wants to make an impact. and then And maybe it's a teenager, right? That wants to form an organization at their school, to promote some healthy alternatives and doesn't exactly know how.

yes, we serve everyone, but those are some of our more targeted populations, I would say.

Yeah, it's great to hear that you're working with families as well, because I think sometimes there are a lost demographic almost in, getting services and getting the advice they need around their loved one's addiction. And

yeah, it's just amazing stuff. So congratulations. And the fact you work with young people in law enforcement as well. How is it working with law enforcement officers? Is that quite a challenge, would you say? Not necessarily about their views, but,

just generally.

I would say that a local law enforcement, like any first responder is really looking for, tools and resources. To help make their job easier, right? And aren't we all right? And so I think that, I have been very pleasantly surprised by the, willingness of law enforcement to try new things, think outside the box.

It's been really inspiring. I know, and and everyone listening knows that, fentanyl is different. It's a different kind of drug. It's, all of the adaptations of all of the synthetics are unlike anything we've ever seen. And so because that drug is different. We have to act differently.

And I think that folks are understanding that, while not specifically law enforcement, it is a first responder. we have great relationships with our local fire departments. we, distribute something called a one box, which is, a tool designed to be placed in public facing businesses, restaurants, bars, stores, churches, whatever, anything in the public.

And it basically is supposed to hang by a fire extinguisher or an AED. And there's two doses of Narcan in it. And there's also a training video that you pop down and it's a law enforcement officer going, first of all, Let's take a deep breath, right? And so we have given out, we've distributed with the assistance of our opioid settlement dollars that have come in through the state.

We have given out over 300 of these boxes. And some of our first early adopters were people you wouldn't really think. Bars and restaurants have been huge. But also, Fire chiefs. Yes, they carry it on trucks. That, as one of the fire chiefs here in Homewood has said, we can be everywhere. And we're the first responder, but really you're the first responder.

And so if you can buy us a little bit of time, if you can respond first, when you see an overdose, that allows us to what's To get there and to save a life. This is truly a partnership. 10 years ago, if you would have told me one of our strongest supporters would be a local fire chief, I don't know that I would have believed you.

but this goes back to the idea that I think that folks understand that things are different. The drug supply is different and we must act differently.

So how many of those one boxes would you say you distributed?

so our initial goal to distribute 30 of them and now we've distributed, almost 350 and more are being distributed all the time.

Wow. So you've saved a lot of lives just, simply by that. I think that's incredible. So big congratulations to you on that. You, wanted to do 30 and you've put over 350 out in the community.

Yeah. we were blown away by the, the reaction. and it's also like places that you wouldn't necessarily think of, like our local power company. They were really interested. They wanted 25 boxes, a local wine bar that's a little like she she frou-frou downtown. They wanted one because people pass by, and they said it's less for us about what happens inside of our bar as what happens outside of our bar.

And we know that not all overdoses are intentional. Not everybody even knows what they're taking. So the outcry, and the support for that project has been really incredible.

Yeah. that's wonderful to hear. It really is. can you tell us about some of the other team members that you work with, Nichole, and what they do? Cause it sounds like you've got an amazing team.

Yeah, I have to say, I inherited a really amazing crew of folks. So we are small, but mighty here at APC. So we currently have 11 staff. That's myself included. and the bulk of those folks are people who go into community, go into schools every day. we have just, and, I think the one thing that we ask everybody on their first interview we say, you don't have to give us the skeletons in your closet, but how has addiction.

impacted your life? How, what consequences have you seen? And, candidates who are very surfacy and say, I've, I've seen it on TV, the folks that say, Oh, I don't know. I've never been impacted. Those are not the people that work here. Every single staff person who works here has seen and felt the consequences of substance use disorder in their own lives, have lost loved ones, were children of alcoholics, attend Al Anon meetings.

The team really gets what it is that we're trying to prevent. we have, people in long term recovery on our team. We have, an epidemiologist on our team who is, first gen and that, she's actually an immigrant to this country. She's from Nigeria and she crunches all of our numbers and works with our data and make sure that we're doing where, what we need to be doing, when we need to be doing it.

And coming over from Africa, even she has experienced consequences of substance use, but didn't really have the words or the space to talk about it. And on her first interview, when she was given that opportunity, she was like, is the place for me.

Wow. So You have 11 people with on your team, you're covering such a wide geographical area. how, wide do you, go geographically within your state?

So we also have several amazing contractors who are awesome. of those are retired teachers, people who loved working with kids, retired and have no desire to do report cards or IEPs anymore. So they, work, they do our lessons and help. Spread our reach. we are officially served, I'm sorry, with serving Central Alabama, but for some of our programs, because we might be the only one that's providing it, or we might have the capacity when other people don't, do have a statewide, reach.

Goodness me. So it sounds, you, so you're covering most of Alabama really,

Yes,

when you need to. Goodness me. Wow. It just shows how your, your service just has grown and is getting so well known the state. That's amazing stuff. you, goodness me. I'd just like to touch on something, Nichole, because you mentioned the Opioid Resettlement Fund. So your state, along with many others, received this fund from the opioid crisis that has gripped the country, very sadly. But would you say that these vital funds are being put to good use, and what is it focusing on the most?

I would say that they're being put to good use at the state level. be honest, that's really the only thing I can speak to. and the reason for that is that the state of Alabama has been very, transparent and proactive, in which was surprising to me. especially because things were necessarily, most straightforward where I came from in Missouri.

but when the attorney general who is very connected to mental health and substance use, he's, very connected to that cause he started getting wind of these potential opioid settlement dollars, the state of Alabama decided to go out on their own. and pursue was one of the few states who pursued it on their own.

At the same time, he also formed a state advisory council to say, okay, we don't have these monies yet, but if slash when we get these monies, Where should we be focusing our energy? the really amazing thing, I was struck by this. I went to one of these meetings, like first week on the job as deputy director, it was people from all departments across the state.

So department of corrections, maternal and child health, there were folks from data or folks from, just everything. Okay. And so the state advisory council was formed. Before there was any money to say if slash when we get this money, how should we spend it? Where should we spend it?

Where are our priorities? Where are hot spots? Let's look at the continuum of substance use disorder Everything from prevention all the way to recovery with treatment and harm reduction in between public awareness And let's make sure that we're hitting of that puzzle. I think they're doing an incredible job.

They have one person who is actually tasked with overseeing the opioid settlement at the state. there's a dashboard. they report out on a quarterly basis. now could it be better? Sure. Okay. it's pretty amazing.

Yeah.

I will say that local opioid settlements, not just in Alabama, but across the country, I'm sure you've heard this over and over again.

Those are a little bit tougher nut to crack. the amounts that local cities and municipalities and townships are receiving isn't always transparent. the, these cities, these local folks that are getting it sometimes are getting the money. don't really know what to spend or on, or they're not trained in substance use.

they see a need. They might want to fill that need that maybe has something or nothing to do with the opioid settlement. a lot of them, in my experience, a lot of the local mayors and local county commissioners and things like that looking for assistance. And some sort of roadmap, but there really isn't one.

And so what we've been trying to do is proactively reach out to some of the counties, some of the local municipalities and saying, do you have a plan for this? If so, we'd love to hear it. If not, would you like to assemble a group of people to come up with a plan? And yes, of course we'd like to be part of that, we'd also just like to help you because this is an incredible.

opportunity. I'm biased, but because I am all about prevention, it's important that we use this once in a lifetime opportunity money to make sure that in 18 years, we are not facing the same issue with another substance. I think we can learn a lot from what we did and did not achieve with tobacco settlement money.

And, that leaves a lot of room for improvement. And I think some states are really getting that and other states are, not necessarily.

yeah, I've, I've interviewed a lot of people on this podcast and I get differing views on how the settlement money is done. And it's just, I'm surprised Alabama has taken such a positive, not a positive, but a proactive and a progressive.

surprised too. And I, tell that to everybody. I'm like, I was shocked. I even called up my old organization and I was like, y'all are never going to believe this. They have a dashboard. They have one person in charge. They have a plan. And they, it's pretty incredible.

Yeah. So compared to Missouri.

I

Sounds

incredible.

I, will say that I was pretty vocal about the fact that Missouri had a ways to go.

Yeah. So you say that Alabama's, obviously states are having trouble coping with the crisis, but they're trying to tackle it. They're actually trying to face it head on instead of running away, so to speak. So that's really wonderful to hear and a real surprise. Nichole, when we first met, you told me about Delta 8. And, and the problems that this is bringing to communities. Can you explain why this is happening? What are the possible effects of this new drug? I'm not too up to date with Delta 8 myself. yeah,

so in the state of Alabama, we are one of the states where cannabis is not legalized, medicinally or for adult use. and yet would not know that if you came to Alabama, because there's a lot of other products that are unregulated and. Our folks at the federal levels, are doing as best as they can to regulate and to keep up it's beating them.

it's beating them. Delta 9, right? Delta 9 THC is what we are most commonly familiar with in terms of the psychoactive drug in marijuana, right? that is Schedule 1 at the federal level. And many states have decided to make that, legal for adult use. People have gotten really smart, right?

Because money is the root of everything. And so while Delta 9 is scheduled, just by changing a molecule or two, other products like Delta 8 are not really regulated. but they have many of the same effects. for example. I was in a, teach, talking with some faculty, last week, and we were talking about cannabis and different drug trends and, the amount of times that a person will go into a convenience store, a, novelty shop and purchase something that they don't know what it is or that they know exactly what it is because they're looking for the high and they're not there.

They're trying not to get into legal trouble. it's happening all the time. The THC is very potent again. It's a lot of times it's being made in places that we don't even know, right? so you really are not sure what you're putting in your body. it's leading to actually a lot of, what's called greening out, which, people, including some teenagers will be like, Oh, weed's no big deal.

I can't die from an overdose. Okay. If that's our measure of danger, Death. I shouldn't have ridden in a car to get to work this morning, right? Because car accidents happen a lot. death not the only thing by which we want to judge the decisions that we make. with cannabis and overdose.

Is called a lot of times by young people greening out and it's where you're getting really sick. You're getting very nauseous You're having some like anxiety some disassociative thoughts you feel like a tremendous hangover and we're seeing that not only with the delta 9 products more of the traditional But also with a lot of the unregulated delta 8 and that's all about making money there are no, in the state of Alabama, there's really no laws against those. also what's interesting here that we're seeing a lot of our THC drinks. so and, they're being billed as NA non alcoholic and yes, while they don't have alcohol in it, they are still a psychoactive drug. so people in recovery, Are being marketed towards these drinks.

again, while they don't have alcohol in them, they do have psychoactive substances. And it is not up to me to tell somebody you're sober. You're not sober. That doesn't fit in the definition, but we just. Want people to be really mindful of what it is that they're putting in into their bodies, whether it's the THC drinks, whether it's a gummy that they got from a neighbor, whether it's, product that they're getting at a convenience store that says that it will increase their energy, like whatever it is, just be mindful of what it is and, it might impact our health

so it's totally legal in your state.

at this point.

So it's very similar to what happened in the UK with legal highs back in the day where we had all these funny drugs coming out that was going to mimic ecstasy or speed

or wow.

And it's several years ago with like bath salts and things like, and K2 and all those things.

yeah. Spice, yeah.

Exactly.

Wow. That's that's really sad that it's still happening, the legal high stuff. It's just, it really did cause us a lot of problems when I was in the UK as well, so I know exactly where you're coming from with that, Nichole. just like to ask you about recovery friendly workplaces.

in your state, how is this program working and has it been well received by employers in Alabama?

Alabama is one of the states that hasn't quite, rolled this out just yet. it is part of the plan that I mentioned before, the opioid settlement. So part of the plan is to focus some additional resources on businesses to get them either recovery ready or to designate them as recovery friendly.

I think it should, be mentioned that a lot of organizations that we talk to, particularly ones that have expressed interest in getting one of those one boxes I mentioned with the Narcan and the training video, there are ready. Recovery friendly. they're allowing time off for mental health.

They're allowing their employees to see their counselor or go to a fellowship meeting on the clock. They are not zero tolerance, right? there's a lot of things that companies are already doing without receiving an official designation of recovery friendly. Now, I will say that, in the Midwest. I was a pretty big part of, recovery friendly workplaces in the Midwest. my former organization was a recovery friendly workplace. I've spoken, around the topic at several national conferences. I think it's incredibly important. for the employee, but also it's a really good way to retain and recruit staff.

The ROI is tremendous on this. And so as a business leader, think it's important not only for my team, but also for my bottom line, quite frankly. so we're working here locally in Birmingham, on, I would say a grassroots recovery friendly. Program, designation maybe, while we wait for the state to, roll things out on a larger capacity.

I'm

Yeah.

we're just going to do it.

Good for you. No, I'm a, I've learned a lot about these, recovery friendly workplaces over here. And it's just amazing to hear that this is, something that's happening and there must be such a,

yeah,

it's an incredibly humbling thing to be a leader and have a staff person come to you and say, if you hadn't given me a second chance. I wouldn't be where I am today. I've had staff people be able to get their first car because they've had stable employment. I've had staff who have come to me and said, thank you so much for understanding that I needed a leave because my partner was going through a substance use issue.

I didn't have to worry about my job security. thank you. And that breeds incredible loyalty. loyalty, to not kick somebody out because they made a misstep. Who amongst us have not made a misstep?

yeah. Humbling, certainly the word, Nicole.

humbling. I

Yeah,

an incredibly important initiative, you couldn't tell. It's something that I'm passionate about.

yeah. it's been lovely to hear about it. I've spoken to a number of people that are championing this and it's always nice to hear something so positive that's going on within the community. It really is. I'd just like to ask you about, the End Addiction Walk in Alabama, because can you tell our audience more about this and how people can get involved because it looks, a fantastic, um,

So this is

an annual event. we do this, every spring this year, it will be, April 5th. and we essentially take over downtown Birmingham. we've had as many as 5, 000 people, join all wearing the same t shirt, all inspired, and, they really take to the streets and they, share stories of hope and healing.

We have a lot of folks that walk in memory of a loved one who has passed away, but we also really have strong support from the recovery community, people who are in long term recovery, who want to come out and show that there is, hope. a way forward and that it absolutely is possible. it's a really great time for our businesses to get involved as well and to really show their support.

it just so happens to be our largest fundraiser, but we try to keep things, pretty, I would say accessible, for folks. And we have since. we started it here in Birmingham and we've since replicated it with partners, in other parts of the state, including a very large walk that happens in Huntsville, which is about an hour and a half away from here.

And, I had the privilege of attending that walk. hold theirs in August and it's just beautiful. we do a thing at the walk where we start by, asking folks, who has, who here has had 30 years of sobriety. And they raise their hand and then we say, who's had 20 years, who's had 10 years, who's had five years.

And we go all the way down to who's had hours, who's had an hour. we make this big circle and there's not a dry eye in the damn house. I got it. it's just. just incredible. and of course, opportunity to remember those people who aren't here with us today, but it's a very inspiring day and we'd love to have people come out and join us.

So if someone wanted to, come and support this, Nichole, how, can someone join this?

so I think the best way would be, coming to our website, which is, apcbham. org and you can't miss it. We've got the dates and walk stuff splattered all over our website.

Good stuff. So anyone who wants to go along, please do support this. it. just sounds

great stuff. It really does. So it's big congratulations on everything you're doing. It's just, it's, to hear what you're doing as an agency and a service is just wonderful to hear.

you.

I'd just like to ask as well, you, you have a podcast yourself,

I

uh, The Shield.

So how long has this been going for and where can people find it and what do you talk about?

it's Yeah, so we have had, APC has had a podcast for a couple years now. Originally it was called Recovery Cafe. When I stepped in as podcast host in September, we revamped it a little bit and called it The Shield because that goes with our logo our motto is fighting addiction face to face.

I have hosted a podcast around prevention, and the intersection of mental health and all facets of life. I've hosted that for the last four years in St. Louis. I love podcasting. it came to me at a time where I was getting a little burned out, and I needed something different and podcasting sure fit the bill.

So when I came here to APC, I was like, I absolutely want to do this. So I did. The executive director at the time was like, I hate podcasting. Are you sure you want to take it over? And I was like, yes, please. So the shield is available, wherever you get your podcasts. What I like about the way that we, conduct the conversation is that it's really two people.

Sitting in a room, having an actual conversation, so much around substance use is a reporter. meaning reporter sticking a mic in your face after something terrible has happened and saying in 15 seconds, can you talk about why this is such a big deal? you comment on this celebrity death?

No, And substance use and mental health is so much more nuanced than a 15 or a 30 second soundbite. It's also an opportunity to talk about all of the different ways that substance use and mental health impact everyday people. So we have guests coming on who run the local food bank or guests who give out diapers and hygiene supplies.

Most people would go, what the heck does that have to do with substance use? tune in and. or listening to an educator or listening to someone who runs grief support groups. it's so it's, it helps us shine a light on the amazing things that are happening in Alabama because I think Alabama gets a bad rap.

and it's also helping, create nuanced, lengthy conversations around topics that are way more than soundbites.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a podcast can be an incredibly powerful tool to have to get your message out. It really can be. We'll make sure as well in the notes we'll have the link to the podcast as well, Nichole, because I've listened to a couple of them and they're great. They

Thank

really are. Um, last couple of questions.

I always ask, My guests these questions. So first one is around stigma. Why do you think in this day and age that people who want to access addiction services feel that stigma of addiction and possibly mental health is stopping them from starting their treatment or at least speaking with a professional about this about their addiction?

do you think this is?

Isn't that the million dollar question? If we knew why,

I think that's one of the reasons why I'm drawn to prevention is because it's really planting those seeds at a very early age to show people that it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to have positive role models that aren't your parents, that you can trust, that you can confide in. It's okay to not have all the answers.

I think the y's us. And drag us down. I was reflecting on people don't talk about their financial health. I don't know about you, but I don't sit around dinner with my friends and talk about the amount of money that's in my bank account how much money I have. If I lost my job tomorrow, right?

I have friends that I know have housekeepers, but they don't talk about it because to admit that you have a housekeeper, Or even a nanny or a babysitter that you call on with regularity that like you don't have it quite together, is so nuts because how could any person possibly be good at everything?

But I have friends that I know they have a housekeeper and it's not discussed. And I know friends that are living paycheck to paycheck, but we don't talk about it. So if we're not talking about those things, And we're sure as heck not talking about the thoughts that keep us up at night and the thoughts that make us potentially want to like really harm ourselves.

I don't know why, but than sitting and wondering why, just go out and do, and work with kids because then hopefully in 20 years we're not asking why.

Yeah, yeah.

because if you look at data, kids are using drugs at rates less than, before. And if you listen to young people talking about their mental health, they're actually talking about it.

And they're using words that a lot of adults don't even know what they mean.

There certainly seems to be a bit more of an open conversation around, addiction now, which is, very good to hear. We've still got a long way to go. but it's,

way to go. A

yeah. But it's good, it's

good to know that these are actually, people are actually talking about this because people need to be aware of this because it's affecting everyone

Everyone,

It's, yeah, it's, thank you for that. That was a really interesting, analogy about the finance as well. that was great. question. I ask all my guests this, because, I get some really interesting and varied answers, Nichole. But can you tell me your opinion of harm reduction and how it can play such a pivotal role in recovery?

Yeah, so I, I think that, I will be completely honest. And when harm reduction first came on the scene, it's been on the scene forever, when we first started calling it harm reduction and first, we're being asked to embrace it, I think that, I was very, anti, especially coming from a prevention lens.

I think for so long there was this notion that if you condone drug use in any way, or you allow people to use while you're still potentially working to get them the support that they need, that is in direct conflict with prevention. that's not true. That's not true. If we think about the analogy of, a faucet, right?

That is just pouring water. We could be downstream and we could be mopping up the water. never going to get anywhere. We could go up and we could turn off the faucet and that's what universal prevention is. you and I both know that faucets leak. And that there is no perfect system. So what happened at the beginning was that I think harm reduction, recovery, treatment, prevention, they were all pitted against each other.

We're all fighting for dollars. And it's Oh, you can't be for recovery and for harm reduction. You can't be for harm reduction and be for prevention. Guess what? You could be for all the things. Because you're going to have that young person that chooses to not use that drinks when they're 21 and it never becomes a problem and they, navigate life and are successful, whatever the heck that means.

You're also going to have that person that no matter what type of education they get, they're still going to make some missteps. they're going to need treatment. They're going to need fellowship and they're going to need harm reduction. I think this notion of, is there enough room in the sandbox?

Like is antiquated. There's more than enough work to do. Like there, there's more than enough work to do. And just because I am a preventionist not also mean I cannot see the value in handing out fentanyl test strips. I can do both things. I can do two things at one time. I can hold two things at one time.

That's a great answer. That really is. It was interesting what you were saying about the different models of recovery. they've got to work together and not against each other. It's, it makes

so much sense.

abstinence only might work for some people. That ain't going to work for everyone. AA works for some people. Smart recovery works for some people. Recovery Dharma works for some people. Some people white knuckle it still. I'm not here to judge and say, what's the best path.

that's right. Yeah. That's right. last question, Nichole. Do you have a message for anyone listening to this podcast who's going through addiction?

We're here. We're here.

Perfect.

That's it.

Perfect.

Yeah. Absolutely. you mentioned to our listeners how to best contact you. Can you just repeat your website again for us, please, and

your contact details?

It's A P C B H A M. Also, I am Nichole, N I C H O L E at apcbham. org. I actually do return emails. I would love to hear from people, love to think about how we could collaborate or partner, and love to hear the great work that other people are doing across the country.

Nichole, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a real privilege and honor to talk to you and to

Thank you so much.

Alabama is doing some great work and it's so nice and it's been a genuine surprise to hear the progressive work that everyone's doing in your state and your agency and service has got a big part to do with this so congratulations to you and your team.

It just sounds wonderful and thank you so much again.

We are honored to be here and we're honored to do this work every day.

That's what it's all about. Thanks, Nichole.

Do, do, do, do, do.