Ep51 Addiction Treatment Unraveling Trauma

Ep51 Addiction Treatment Unraveling Trauma

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley: Hi, welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest Shelby Taulbe, who is an Addiction Trauma Therapist at the Legacy Healing Center in Cambridge, Ohio. Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, Shelby. It's so good to have you with us today.

Shelby Taulbee: Yes, thank you.

Chris Langley: Really appreciate it. And obviously you're very busy, especially coming back from the holiday.

We're just gonna dive straight in with the first question. Can you tell us about yourself and your journey to becoming the addiction and trauma therapist at the Legacy Healing Center?

Shelby Taulbee: Oh yeah, sure. I landed in Legacy, I was a caseworker, in community mental health. Primarily working with, schizophrenia, schizoaffective, a lot of them were co disorders. when I first started, it was, lot of the drugs were heroin, and, And, heroin based clients schizophrenia, schizoaffective, and then it transitioned to meth, which was a difference, a big difference within that and, it really opened me to a lot of, new ideas, things that I had previously thought about the substances just completely change when you see it first hand, go through a lot of experiences even if you didn't think you was going to go through those experiences. and then I got my Licensure. After working in the field for about six and a half, seven years as a case worker, got my therapy licensure and I worked in some of the psych hospitals and eventually landed to a Legacy here in Cincinnati.

Chris Langley: Goodness me. so can you just say to us, what was it when you said you worked with, initially people that had issues with heroin and then on to meth, what were the main differences, would you say, with working with clients who are experiencing that kind of addiction?

Shelby Taulbee: They used to call it hillbilly meth. They probably still do. It's cheap, cheaper to make, easier to get. It's more cost effective. It still gets them high one way or another. It is weird because usually here Heroin can be, a downer and meth is more of an upper, but for some people if they're trying to numb or what, whatever the reason is, it's still a substance that they can, feel either numb, stimulated by one way or another, but it's cheaper.

Yeah.

Chris Langley: Definitely. Okay, thanks for explaining that. Can you just, we're going to ask about the Legacy Healing Center. Can you explain some of the many services and programs that you provide, including the levels of care?

Shelby Taulbee: Yeah, sure. we do have six locations, here in Cincinnati, we stand out because we do have the mental health sector, which is just PHP, and we also have that for our substance abuse clients as well. And PHP, typically, it's individual basis, also insurance. It can last, it's usually around average 30 35 days.

Sometimes it's even longer than that. And, the step down from that would be IOP5, which is, five, groups a week. and then step down from that, three groups a week. And then we have outpatient, which is one group a week. And with each of those, level of care, transitions. meet with a therapist a minimum of once a week.

Sometimes we meet with them twice a week. Just depends on what they got going on in their lives. but yeah, so PHP is, the one that's, it's, they're here six days out of the week. Sunday's the only day that they don't come. and with PHP for our substance abuse clients, they actually go to meetings about four times, five times out of the week.

Sometimes it's in house, out, out house. and that's, AA meetings. DNA meetings, and of course, if that's something that they, don't feel is right for them, we have Celebration Recovery, Smart Recovery, and there's other choices out there, But yeah.

Chris Langley: It sounds like you give a pretty, pretty wide spectrum of services to your clients. It really does. So, obviously it's insurance based. So the 30 day thing, is that just down to insurance?

Shelby Taulbee: Yeah, I, it also depends on how long they was in detox, if they had, if they're a polysubstance use, user, and they've used for many years, I mean they may have been in detox longer, age depends on that, it can depend on that as well, but the average, it would be around. 30 to 35 days. My clients usually are about, probably more towards 35, 40 days.

Just depends if I, whenever I meet with them, if we feel that they're ready. And sometimes they present differently in session than they do in group. And we have meetings throughout the week just to try to, get input like, oh, do we think we're ready? Because they might be ready, in individual therapy, but in group they're, it's, not, something's not congruent, so with that. It's a collaborative thing and and then we, obviously talk with a client about it. if they think they're ready and sometimes they're really bold and they think they're ready and then it gets time to come and they're just like, I'm not ready. and that's good for them to voice that versus me voice it first.

Chris Langley: Yeah, that's very, important. you also have a sober living service. how long does the client stay at these premises and how do they become a resident for your sober living housing scheme?

Shelby Taulbee: in Ohio our housing is actually separate and, and other Legacy locations, it's all together. And I think that's because with our location, when they first was looking for a location up here, the main building that we're in, for the groups and therapy sessions. It's in a business district so the housing component had to be separate because there's just no room to add another housing component where we're at now but now I know in Florida it's all together.

So I think it depends on location. So they can stay in housing again like I said it's and we use Citadel 12 is the place that we use, utilize, and if they wanted to say they wanted to do group or individual session but not live in that housing. There's sober living. There's a lot of sober living places in Cincinnati.

And because the cost of living in Cincinnati, the sober living are not that expensive compared to what I've heard about for instance, like Texas. Texas seems to, sober livings are if not double, triple than what our cost of sober living is. And I think it's just because the cost of living in general.

Chris Langley: So, how long, does someone stay with you in the sober living? What's the kind of average length of time someone can stay there? Is there any time limits or?

Shelby Taulbee: it's, individual basis based off insurance.

Chris Langley: Excellent.

Shelby Taulbee: longest I've had somebody Be in sober living and still come to groups and sessions. it could be, even up to six months, you know what I'm saying. A lot of people tend to aim towards that because it's a sense of community, and support.

And it's not uncommon for people to, be from out of state and relocate to Cincinnati. And I always say to people, we have, our personal private public life. You might be able to go to somebody for, finances or talk about daily living. Thanks, but who do you have to talk to about addiction and that is a common topic that we talk about because a lot of People don't have that support, you know It's Who can you go to and then some people if they realize like I don't really have anybody or they think they can't get that Sense of community back home Then they build one up here and they end up relocating,

Chris Langley: That's awesome. That's awesome. you were telling us about the many services and programs that you provide at Legacy. Can you tell us about some of the team members you have working with you?

Shelby Taulbee: Yeah, we got a variety We on my clinical team they call us therapists a lot of us. about half and half we have a lot of LPCs in Ohio, that's, licensed professional counselors and we also have social workers, levels, and types of experience.

So in Ohio as well we have the CDCA, which is the chemical dependency licensure and there is a handful of us that have that and then the other handful of us have actually been through addiction, ourselves, so there's a combination. And even with our group facilitators, I'm almost certain almost every single one of them have.

CDCA, if not higher, to be qualified to even do or run groups, They want, highly skilled people, experienced people, in these groups because it's just going to be more beneficial, more relatable with the clients, more personable.

Chris Langley: Yeah, most definitely. you also mentioned earlier that you work with people who are experiencing different addictions, as well as clients who are experiencing mental health trauma, also known as co occurring disorders or dual diagnosis. What would you say are some of the challenges that you face when you're working with this, very specialized client group?

Shelby Taulbee: To me, it is, I don't want to say the word normal is broad, it's average. even if we have someone come in and the insurance search them for mental health, but of them are actually co, disordered. And it's actually my primary, population to work with because, me addiction is a symptom.

10 times it's a symptom. Even if there is a genetic component, I always say it's not like you woke up at three years old and decided I want to do fentanyl, right? Everyone has a timeline, everyone experiences trauma to a different level and different severity. And, so yeah, it's just preferred.

And a lot of my stuff, I don't focus too heavy on their drug of choice, but I focus on if Is it an upper? Is it a downer? and then I review their timeline because more than not, majority of my case they have complex PTSD which I know is not in the DSM yet but it will be in time. things that happened to them before the age of 18 and the timeline is so important that a lot of clients I have gathered don't realize there are certain events that were not, to them.

But it was so normalized growing up that was just what they, all they knew. So how would that work? They know any difference, that's just what we did, so yeah, I don't see it as a challenge, it's a preferred, clientele of mine.

Chris Langley: Yeah, I love that. I also liked how you explained about the timeline. Because that's so important and that's something you don't really hear about a lot. So that's, that must be quite a powerful tool for when you're sitting down with a client and you go through that whole process of, their life and when the addiction started and what happened.

Shelby Taulbee: Yeah,

Chris Langley: must, yeah,

Shelby Taulbee: I

Chris Langley: must be incredible.

Shelby Taulbee: it's, I love patterns, I'm really good at patterns, not with numbers, but patterns within human behavior and there's always a correlation with something, multiple correlations, even if they can't see it, and that's for me to guide them, not to tell them, but to guide them.

And I actually, used to just have We have one packet, and it's part of the shadow self, right? The good, the bad, the ugly within us, but after all, it is us. how do we shake sides, with all these sides of us? And why, do we always wear these masks? A lot of people wear masks, Why can't we be comfortable wearing our true self all the time?

and that's a hard question for a lot of people. But with my timeline, I've implemented three separate packets, personalized together of the most updated information, because, as things get updated often. And I feel like since, Post COVID, they have really zoned in or focused more on mental health and addiction because even prior to that, people didn't believe those two things were real.

I do believe they feel it's real more so now, but there's still people who don't believe that. But, with the shadow self, the timeline is something I focus on and it's not uncommon for them, to not remember things, which would be that repressed memory, suppressed. through our programs, like we have EMDR, we have brain pain.

If that was that ball of whatever you want to call it, a neuron or whatever, in our brain that was closed up, from childhood, it starts loosening. And, again, it's not uncommon for me to start seeing these peaks and they're feeling a type of way and they can't figure out why, and that's for me to zone in on, hey, it could be this and this.

what do you think? yeah.

Chris Langley: Wow. you, mentioned about family history or the timeline. do you actually work with clients family members at all?

Shelby Taulbee: Yeah, we, we do family, sessions. We don't do, family marriage counseling or anything like that. And how I usually word it, because sometimes family members want it to make it about them. but I always have to steer them back, this is my client, they're your family member.

And I aim it as hey, from your perspective, have you seen, what their timeline, anything traumatic that you can think of that may have triggered them, because they obviously have known them longer than I have. I only know from what the client tells me or presents to me. that bit, piece is really beneficial.

and we do that through phone, or even in person, well.

Chris Langley: that's great that you work with family members. it's lovely to hear that you do that. one more question I'd like to ask you about legacy. So how are clients referred to you? And what's the process for someone wishing to access your service?

Shelby Taulbee: Yeah, we, have a lot of, whether you want to call them like, sister, companies or, connections with some of the detox places that we, utilize. And I don't want to say we utilize them, they're separate from us, but we do go there, we do talk with people, see, And, detox, where they plan on going and if the services that we have is something that they, are interested in, that is one way we do it.

we have people through our alumni department reach out to us through Facebook. there's multiple ways someone can get enrolled with us. even word by mouth, hey, my, my, so and so went there, I want to go there. And actually, I have a client now, who's on Casey's Law in Kentucky.

he was referred to us, his, ex girlfriend, was here, like a few years ago, a couple years ago, and, just random connections like that.

Chris Langley: Wow, that's, that sounds pretty intense stuff. that's, but it's really good to know that you've, you work with the clients. you've also worked, so I just wanna talk about your career a little bit because you've also worked with people who are sadly involved in people trafficking.

And, could you tell us about your work and how this is such a major problem nationwide? Because it just seems to be just, such an issue, especially, in America.

Shelby Taulbee: Yeah. when I first actually heard anything about human trafficking, I remember I was finishing up my graduate program and they was mentioning that the human trafficking was about to surpass the, pill-mill trafficking and I just wrap my head around that and I was like, how, was that?

And so I did, me being me, I went through a lot of rabbit holes then and, recently updated some of my information. it's prevalent. It's around everywhere. the way human trafficking can come about, and I even looked at the statistics. I know Ohio's been in top five of the states, of human trafficking, a while now.

And I do believe it's because of, of the reasons our, system and our highway, the routes. It's easy to get to different states pretty quick. And with the three C's that we have, Columbus, and Cincinnati, I also believe they're the top three of, the trafficking. And, inner cities, it can happen in any inner city.

And, when I looked at the statistics, I believe it was between the ages of like 20 and 59, of, the majority of the average victim. And, I think they even went down by race. but really The victim thing was interesting to me, and my personal experience with this when I was a caseworker, I remember having a gal

was from Champaign County in Ohio, and she was, it was tough to work with her because she had been using drugs for so long, and was prostituted out for so many years. it's hard not to lean back towards that lifestyle, for money because if that was your norm for the longest time.

it can be easy to go back to, and she ended up being, the FBI was involved in her case, and it was because her offender found where she was at. I do believe the police, that she said the police, unfortunately was involved with some of the stuff that was happening. I don't know if that was true or not, and because of her drug use, I remember if she was to eat something, it would take her two whole weeks to even, process that.

of her system. And I just remember that I'm like, which pills can do that, to you. So I had my experience with her. I don't know, I have not followed up. I don't know about her case any longer. while being here, I had, two individuals from each end of human trafficking. And both of them were in our mental health sector.

One of them had such a bad experience and started having things come back. Which, when they do EMDR, I usually process right after, with the things that they've been feeling or thinking. And one of his first memories was being in a hole that was dug out. And he was so hungry that he was eating on a corpse.

And the corpse was of a woman, and this was one of many stories he had. And she was trafficked, she was not from the United States. and he, I still have a copy of it, had all the details. of the events that was happening, but he was so paranoid and when I had him he, schizophrenia tendencies by then because once you start having these flashbacks and question things, especially if your offender is still in your life or one of the offenders are still in your life, and they're saying no that never did happen.

It can mess with you, right? and that actually, based off what he said, there's still an ongoing investigation because the place that took place in, the property had been resold. And the last time he looked, there, it was still caution taped off because they was re digging up these areas, that he and other, people mentioned, where these things were happening on, happening.

other individual, he had a lot of guilt, a lot of shame for what he did. He was on the other end of it for, drugs. And some of the things that he witnessed and did, it was primarily to, support his family, but entirely. He got hooked on drugs, separated from his family, and just the amount of guilt and shame of things he did, went against his moral compass, and, and both of those individuals are not even from Ohio, and it's really hard to get them to open up, right?

know that they're in the same place, but, we're talking years of trauma, and that's really hard, yeah.

Chris Langley: Wow, thank, you so much for sharing that experience with us. how do you cope with, hearing that as a therapist?

Shelby Taulbee: I didn't really think about this until I was talking to one of the psych providers and you have a lot of, have a lot of negative things, right? don't see it like that. I see they have a lot of things on their mind and, it's for me to navigate them to unravel things little by little.

they're the ones the steering wheel. I'm just in the passenger seat, right? If you wanna take this road, that might be, really scary. we can take it. If you just wanna stay on the main road, we can do that or pull off a little bit. Talk. We can do that. compartmentalizing it I think is very.

And if you don't, that's where the burnout happens, right? and doing things, for self care. And, it's also important. And to me, that'd be music, right? and that's with knowing yourself. do you get your energy off of people? Or do you get it by yourself? And for me, it's nature. so I refuel nature.

on the weekends, it's nature. or with my kids. But whenever I leave here, I'm Mom Shelby. you're not going to be able to get a hold of me. Because that's how I have to be. Because, when I was a caseworker, I didn't do that I brought work home. And it's very important and I'm sure other people have mentioned that but you have to set those boundaries,

Chris Langley: Yeah.

That's a very, important message for anyone who's coming into this field. It's a self care, self wellness. It really is. Burnout is just such a big, issue within the sector because people, as you said, can't cope. detach work from home or it's very, I've, gone through it myself.

So I know exactly where you're at. wow. last question I'd like to ask you about your, previous work, Shelby's, about your research, about potential link that you discovered about addiction and genetics. Can you tell us about your work and research and what were your findings? This is fascinating.

Shelby Taulbee: Oh, yes, You know I came about this because even though I was in school I learned so much from my clients and doing groups and hearing other things from clients and feedback is so important. So ADHD Which is, I have, and I see it as a superpower in one aspect, and one of the rabbit holes I've been going down for a while, and it tipped the point not too long ago, and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm, other people have had to have noticed this.

there's a lot of correlation, okay, so we, know about ADHD. People with ADHD tend to have, higher, risk of higher levels of addiction. And I see People here, even if they don't have the diagnosis of ADHD, they have a lot of ADHD, tendencies. whether stimming, stuff like that.

And that's why it's important when I mention if they prefer uppers or downers. recently I see, not recently, a while ago, was it Dr. Ahmed, he, he mentioned that there's 16 different types of ADHD, which I was like, that's interesting because I've met people who have the anxiety component, maybe some OCD, and then I've met people who don't have the anxiety component, right?

Could be more in the depression. I was like, why is that? I went all the way. All the way back, and with ADHD, have you ever heard of the gene mutation called MTHFR?

Chris Langley: Not personally, no.

Shelby Taulbee: Okay, I didn't either until, doing some of this research, this genetic, mutation is, projec like there is a significant, link to people with ADHD and having this, genetic mutation.

how do you get it? you inherit it. there's different, genotypes that you inherit from a mom or dad. And from what I gather, there's 40 different mutations. what has been well known is about three of them. And why is this important? these people can't process folic acid, which is a man made, chemical.

And because of that, people with ADHD cannot detox properly. but what we can do is self soothe, and what do people tend to go to? Substances, right? And that's why they say methofolate is very important because, Now, with postpartum depression, there's, they say 85% of postpartum depression is directly related to the prenatal vitamin because they say take folic acid.

why did this come about? tracking, keep following me, keep tracking

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Shelby Taulbee: I was looking I heard, this is what I mentioned that tipped it off. In the area that we are in, so Ohio, Pennsylvania, majority of the East Coast, Kentucky, West Virginia. Even a little bit of Alabama, Mississippi.

We have higher cases of, not only complex PTSD, ADHD. and then I was like, why is that? But also with, oxycodone, epidemic, those same similar states, were prescribed more during that time than any other states. I think there's like a one outlier in that. And I'm like, why was we targeted?

And then If you look at the research, they're like, oh, it's because of, blue collar workers, all this. And I'm like, okay. So follow with me. Keep going back. So I went all the way back because I was looking at genetics. Irish, Scots Irish, settled, majority of them settled in Kentucky and then the Germans kind of followed after.

And I was looking what does that have to do with anything? the potato famine, event that happened in Ireland, any of their offsprings have this potential of genetically mutating their genes and that is exactly what happened into the MTHFR gene. And of course Germany had their own, famine, events as well.

And I'm like, okay because of the starvation, what did they have to eat? I'm sure there was a lot of alcohol around, right? But we can't process people in this area, can we? Cannot process. If you have any Scots Irish genes or German genes, we cannot process folic acid and we build up all this toxicity and to self soothe can, increase addiction even more.

And to add on to that, in 1990, between 1990 and 1992 when they passed the GMO, I guess you could call it a sector and the herbicides and pesticides on our crops, genetically mutate our genes. Yes, we have more. I think they're seeing more. Increase in adhd diagnosis. And, autism diagnosis.

So yes, so I think there's a correlation. I feel like with this area, is it all Appalachians? No. But, I think all this started from, the famine, events.

Chris Langley: Wow, that's that's some,

that's some serious research. My goodness, when did you,

when did you first discover this? This is fascinating.

When did you first realize this and what, this, is great stuff.

Shelby Taulbee: I think it was the commonalities, because a lot of stuff, I was like, oh, is this just an Appalachia thing, but I've worked with people from all over the states, and I'm like, no, I don't think it's so much an Appalachia thing, but I think we can target this down, even, some more areas, and once I had like a basis of things, I was like, okay, is this correlated, then I started hearing things, I was like, wait, is this correlated as well, because if you look up people who have this gene mutation, and again, it's directly correlated with, ADHD.

And complex PTSD, a lot of North American, Caucasian, individuals in these certain areas have it, but also Native Americans. So then I was like, okay, why Native American? And then I looked, it was, the Plains Tribe. then I also looked, did they go through any kind of event that would be related to a famine event?

And sure enough, yes. with M-T-H-F-R you are, when, I mentioned addiction, correlated with that out. is what it is. If one of the most common substances, if people with MTHFR was to get addicted to and in Native American tribes, I know that's a issue with alcohol. they also had this gene mutation through going through a lot of famine, events and, I don't want to get on like an anti government spill or anything like that, but we targeted in certain ways because of this and with this MTHFR, Redhead gene, oh, they have higher pain tolerance.

No, it's not the redhead gene, it's the MTHFR gene. So we have a higher pain tolerance and we have a higher, threshold. So which means that we need to take more things. So if we was to go into surgery, we'd have to consume more of, medication if we was to get surgery in order for it to be effective.

And that is directly related to that gene.

Chris Langley: I've learned an incredible amount from this conversation. My goodness me. That's definitely, have you published any of your findings?

Shelby Taulbee: Oh, no, I'm just a little guy. This is just ADHD rabbit holes. I went down,

and I

Chris Langley: This is great.

Shelby Taulbee: like other correlations and the only two people I know who have, hit on any, of what I just like, anything that I just mentioned was is Gary Breka and Dr. Eric Berg. They mentioned a lot about this, and how to heal yourself naturally, so you wouldn't be so predisposed to, these addictions, and with complex PTSD.

These individuals, because it's a survey of ten questions, if you, they say three or more on, if you say yes to three or more of these questions, you're more highly likely to develop an addiction, mental health issue, physical issue, or a combination of those, likely to be sexually active at an early age, like there's all this new evidence on it, and a year ago they didn't have this evidence, so I do know that someone else out there is focusing and recognizing, these individual components, but pairing them all together, I haven't seen it yet and I'm hoping in the future they do.

Chris Langley: congratulations on this. That's, really fascinating work and people need to hear about this. That's a very different take on addiction, which I'm just, amazing stuff. Shelby, you mentioned earlier about the, opioid crisis and the, the, pill, factories and stuff. So how's your state coping with the opioid crisis and what harm reduction is in place for people who are using opioids in your state?

Shelby Taulbee: So as of right now, we have been getting more grants, in the state of Ohio, especially southern Ohio, for mental health. And I, and like I mentioned about the COVID thing, there's a lot of bad things that happened with COVID, but one of the good things that did come about it was, more grants, more, focus on mental health.

And when I was working on the ACT team, which is like, One of the most, intensive, teams. You go out in, in, in the community with the homeless and you basically meet them where they're at. basically survival, needs ADLs work on ADLs. And, the programs they have then, I know, have intensified.

Actually, I just got confirmation of that, the other day. and when Cincinnati, also like Northern Kentucky, it's similar. It's just the river separating us. so as far as harm, reduction, if we're seeing a client seven days out of the week, on a team aspect, making sure they have basic needs and, knowing they know that we're gonna, show up and trust us because a lot of their families have disowned them.

And, if we can, if they know we're coming, it's less likely for them to stray away and find somebody who's going to take advantage of them, not just for addiction, hey, do you need You do this. I'll give you this. And some of them cognitively are like, okay, I'll, I'll do that.

So there are teams in place right now in, in Southern Ohio, that work with these clients, to help them and it's better for us to engage like that versus like them going out and doing whatever, getting whatever and, taking whatever. I know clients they'll take, they'll take whatever, just because of their mindset.

Now, as far as harm reduction, in Ohio. in the United States, what was it, the, I think a lot of this kind of stopped, was it the, was it the, oh, Reagan's War on Drugs, that wasn't a big harm reduction. It was a stop in a lot of things. But in other countries, just like the RFK video, it was slowly talking about other countries have adopted the harm reduction model and they have been successful.

in particular, Switzerland and, the Netherlands, and not only that, but Switzerland, and I've been following this for a while, I should have known I was going into this field a long time ago, because I wasn't going to originally be a therapist, remember doing a paper about, psychedelics back in 2011 in my undergrad, the stuff that came about it, and I was like, oh, that's interesting, and I was like, at the time, I was like, that's weird, but they, their model and how they do things, especially with, like therapy, they got a therapist there, they got a medical doctor there whether it's MDMA, or psilocybin, it seems to be more therapeutic of how they're doing things versus how we're doing things and not only is their addiction rates down, as far as the criminal aspect of it, they don't have as much if you compare it to America and do I think we will eventually, introduce the harm reduction in Americans model, yes, I think we're on the route.

Because I know that the FDA just approved of the VA to use which is great. I know that they've been trying to, in the process of doing psilocybin as well, of microdosing and until the government can find a way for them to get, tax it, put, get their money aspect of it, not gonna, pan out until that happens.

But, yeah, I don't know if that answered your question, but yeah.

Chris Langley: Yeah, it's good to know that things are actually progressing in a slightly in the right direction now instead of regressing I suppose and what you're saying about the veterans and the MDMA that's already been proved so absolutely. I'd just like to ask

you what your opinion is of what harm reduction is and how it can play such a pivotal role in recovery.

I ask all my guests this.

Shelby Taulbee: Yeah. I see it go both ways. like my partner, he used to, at the peak of his addiction, he was using heroin. And would be his drug of choice. and I say that because that was back in the day, if he was still, it would probably be meth, because meth is cheaper and all that stuff.

But, he, because, it's illegal, it's, or it's legal. It's legal here in Ohio now, and I would rather him smoke marijuana versus doing heroin, right? more productive and I want to throw this in there too because this is a topic I get, gets mentioned to me, so there's quite a bit of people, I don't know, the state that you're in, who they will get off a substance and they will end up getting on Suboxone, Subutex, or, Suboxone, And some people are like, oh, you're just switching one addiction to another.

I get that and it's doctor prescribed it to you. So it's okay. However, you're going to be more, productive on this, type of, medication versus heroin, right? So I've seen it on that side, but then other people, I know they're like, if I smoke weed, it's going to lead to alcohol.

And then it's going to lead me to crack cocaine. I know that about myself. So I see it go both ways with that,

Chris Langley: yeah, indeed. do you think stigma can have such a negative effect still on people wanting to access treatment? It's a question I, just still in this day and age, I can't believe that stigma has such a, still has such an effect because of all the propaganda around addiction. So what would you, why do you think it can still have such an effect?

Shelby Taulbee: I don't like mentioning generations, but it is a generational thing, I think this can fall in with someone's, what, what signified. So of all the things he said, this one I do believe is pretty valid. the id, ego, superego. When we have things on the superego, so the morals, values, things that we was brought up, and especially if there's a religious component.

So if anyone has any religious background, I think it's harder to get through to them because it's almost embedded in their brain like oh addiction is bad You shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do that. But to me, I'm like, okay Let's break it down. If I was to tell any average American right now that is not addicted to say Hard substances to stop eating sugar what's going to happen?

Their body's going to go through withdrawals Like that's a tall tale example, you know I don't understand why some People don't believe it. And this is how I end up, the universe is interesting, it works in mysterious ways and I often say that. If someone doesn't believe in mental health or addiction, it's going to show up in their life so we're to the point they can't not see it.

Does that make any sense? Like it's going to show up one way or another. Even if someone has kids and their kids, don't have any addiction issues. They could have a friend, that could be really impacted by that. Or they could have a grandchild that could be really impacted by that. That as long as America is in this mindset.

So the mindset that we're in today, even though it is shifting, is going to continue to stay, and mental health is going to continue to rise. and that's why I'm glad there's a

shift happening.

I wish it would have happened sooner. but maybe Americans weren't ready for that yet. And, I think it's talking about it more.

I get some clients that are from really small towns and say they didn't have a genetic component, as far as, the whole nature versus nurture. Say they didn't have the genetic component of getting that, gene, which, Which makes them more susceptible of having addiction.

Say it was just a small, casual thing and then it developed into a habit and then they talk with their family and I always hear, why don't you just quit? if it was that easy, they wouldn't be in rehab, yeah, I, see it, I think talking about it more, and I talk about addiction with everybody, even outside of here, and I get some, eyes, but I'm like, this is the truth.

This is the reality. I don't know what world you live in, but this is reality. Real

Chris Langley: Yeah. Do you think that the opioid crisis has moved the conversation on somewhat around addiction and stigma?

Shelby Taulbee: Yeah,

Chris Langley: more people

are affected by it now.

Shelby Taulbee: yeah, I think, not just that. I think, 'cause the opioid, crisis ended up shifting into, the bigger one I seen 'cause, was it the, Sackler family with Purdue?

I was looking at that the other day and I was like, I'm gonna see the statistics and the fentanyl, crisis, which is still a thing. It came to be the newer one. And it's almost once you start hearing about one substance and what to do with that one, then it almost shifts. It doesn't matter if it's the opioids, fentanyl. It's gonna, it's going to continue. Ten years from now they're probably gonna make a new substance. But the reality is it's all real. And it's unfortunate that the vets have to go as far as they do as far as getting help and services, but I do think the stigma will, decrease in time. And I also say this is be an example of that. So when I was a caseworker, we used to do, was like officers in training.

We would, have the local parole officers, and sheriffs and state highway patrol officers in my local county shadow us. And of course, we wouldn't go to the houses or places where people were staying if they was homeless, if they had a warrant out for their arrest. But we would show them, what we go through and almost always.

I did it for three, four years after they started implementing it. don't you have a gun? I'm like, because a gun's not, a gun's not going to de escalate a situation. My voice, having a calm, or calm demeanor and talking to them like they're a person, because they are, going to de escalate a situation more so, and the younger ones that were in the program seemed to get it. older

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Shelby Taulbee: they have this black and white thinking. Not saying they can't learn, but they, it's already fixiated. So I do think it is a generational thing with that.

Chris Langley: Yeah, I had the same experience myself working with the police in the UK as well, and it was definitely the younger ones that seemed to get it a lot more than the older generation, for sure.

Shelby Taulbee: Oh

Chris Langley: yeah. that's uh, but let's hope, let's hope this continues around, we can actually still talk about this and end the stigma.

It's so, so vital.

my last question to you, Shelby, is do you have a message for anyone who's listening to this podcast who's going through addiction? What would you say to them?

Shelby Taulbee: It's never too late. It's never too late to get help. If you want help, there's places that will help you. and the energy that someone, takes, to get their substances, if they're willing to deal with it. And shift that energy into yourself and get help. It can happen.

Chris Langley: I couldn't think of a better way to end this podcast, Shelby. Can you tell our listeners how to best contact you and to find your service online?

Shelby Taulbee: They can find me on LinkedIn. Shelby, I'm sure Shelby Taulbee just typed me in. I think I'm the only Shelby Taulbee in Ohio. and as far as Legacy, 888-534-2295. If they wanna learn any, thing about, any of the programs, 'cause we have multiple, locations or just in.

and they can reach out to me too to get connected if they wanted to. but yeah, those are two ways that they can do that.

Chris Langley: Awesome. Well, Shelby, it's been a real privilege and an honor to speak to you today and find out about your amazing career and your research is just fascinating. I wish you all the very best for the future and, for your, for your amazing

team that you have at Legacy.

Shelby Taulbee: Thank you for having me.

Chris Langley: No, thank you so much.

I really appreciate your time. Thanks.

Do, do, do, do, do.