Ep50 Addiction Professionals Self-care for Vicarious Trauma

Ep50 Addiction Professionals Self-care for Vicarious Trauma

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley: Hi, welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host, Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest, Pat Tucker. Pat is a Recovery Work Supervisor in the state of New Hampshire. Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, Pat.

It's so good to have you with us today.

Pat Tucker: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Chris Langley: No, we are too. I'm really excited to talk to you. Can you tell us about yourself and your career journey in the addiction field, please?

Pat Tucker: Yes, I am. I was one of those people years ago that had children very young. I had three children by the time I was 23, so I was spending most of my time, all of my time, raising them. I began to work part time in order to just earn a little money and so I went to Concord Hospital and I was working in the admitting office. And I worked there for about 12 years and then, one day one of the doctors came and said, would I be interested in joining his practice. So I went to work for Concord OBGYN for another 12 years. then my kids were pretty much grown. I'd always wanted to go back to school, but I never managed to do that. So I was in my late forties when I went back to school and I had no idea what I wanted to do. so I went down to the tech school in town and I said, I want to take classes, but I don't know what I should be. so they, had me see a career counselor and she said I think maybe you would be a good counselor So I said I could try that. So I took a psychology course. I fell in love with it Ended up starting there at the tech by then. I was working at the multiple offender program, which was program where people had two or more DWIs came to us and we tried to educate them against drinking and driving So I was working there.

So I was able to work full time go to school and still do my internships because they were nice enough. They wanted me to be a counselor So they were nice enough to figure all of my schedules. So one day I would work two straight Shifts in order to fit that in I think looking back I by then a couple of my children I had two sons and a daughter and both of my sons were getting in trouble with the law. My brother I was just talking to him the other day and he reminded me that one year both of them were in jail when my family came for a for Christmas and I'd forgotten about that. So they were getting in a lot of trouble. So I think in my mind I thought maybe I could save them or help them anyway. That is not what's happened at all but I was led to the field of alcohol and drug counselor. both of my sons have passed away unfortunately due to this awful disease but I have stayed in the field and I've learned a lot since then that's for sure. And, so I worked at the Multiple Offender Program. Then I went back to Concord Hospital and I worked in there as a LADC there. I've been a LADC for 32 years. So I worked at the hospital and I love that work because I worked in the Intensive Outpatient Program I also saw people one on one. But the thing I liked the best was doing consults in the hospital. If anybody came in for a Anything to do with alcohol or drugs, we would go up and talk to them, we would try to tell them what we had for services, and would they be interested in coming. to get some services from our Fresh Start program. So people would come and it really made a difference in their life.

And we just, by us dropping by and somebody saying, you're important enough that you could get some treatment. so that's what I did. Now I'm semi retired, But I, I still have a private practice. I've always had a private practice, just seeing a few people when I was, had a full time job, but now I don't have a full time job anymore. So I see a few people and I do quite a bit of supervision. for other LADCs and CRSWs. And so I just see a couple of patients, not a couple, but a few patients a week and I do the supervision. So I love what I do. I still love what I do after all these years and will stop sometime but I'm not sure when. That's a little bit about me.

Chris Langley: thank you for sharing that, Pat. That's an incredible journey. And the fact that you're still doing this work now is just testament to your knowledge and experience and your passion for the work in addiction and recovery. congratulations on that. That was wonderful to hear. Pat, when we first met, you told me about your work in recovery centres, which I wanted to talk about, because that sounded so Everything you've done is so important, obviously, but the recovery, but the the recovery centre work, I'd love to tell our audience about what you do there.

Pat Tucker: Let me tell you about how our recovery center started. I live in a small town. We have a very good minister in our town and she got some people together and she said, we really need to do something for all the people that have a substance use disorder in this town. it was a wide variety of people, some just from the community, a nurse, me and her and a few other people that said some people in recovery and they said what can we do to?

to help people so she's a very smart lady And so what we started to do was we knew we had to have some money. So we started to have spaghetti suppers so we would raise some money with spaghetti suppers. And then we moved on a thrift store. We found a place that would have us have a thrift store.

So we had a thrift store and people would come in and buy things and while they were in there they got to chat with people. And just talk about recovery would you like to do? So then we raised enough money to rent a building in our town. That was the old post office. So we rented a building now we have four different centers. In four towns surrounding us, and I don't even know how many employees there are. There are a lot of employees and there's a lot of CRSWs, which are certified recovery support workers. This is fairly new. This was about seven years ago that we started this and since then we've been able to build that much.

That's quite a bit. And now I don't even know how many employees are, employees there are, but a lot. And we've branched out. Not only do we have recovery workers, we have people that work with families, we have families that come in and they get a lot of support and we get the things that the Family Resource Center can do.

It's just amazing. Counselors are really important, but these recovery workers, they sit down with people, they help them get insurances, because a lot of people don't have insurance, so we help them get insurance. So that's really important. And, they sometimes they'll, if their car's broken, they can give somebody some money to fix their car or say their electric bill is going to be shut off.

They'll get money to help their electric bill get paid and transportation. They provide transportation. They've got a little van. They got somebody to help donate a van, so they provide transportation because we live in a town where there isn't a bus or anything like that so transportation is really hard to find so they'll take people to treatment take people if they have a court date They will take people to the court date and they will sometimes stay there and Support them.

They can't say anything in the court, but they can just give the person support So they give them a lot of support and most of these people are in recovery themselves they know where this person has been they try to help them by sometimes sharing their own experiences And they set them up with services too.

say they Housing is another whole subject. There's a ton of houses. They'll try to get them on the list for the housing and give them support in any way they can. They'll call them. every other week or something and say how you doing, just somebody to say, "how are you doing?" could be so important because sometimes by the time people have burnt all their bridges families get tired of it. Everybody gets tired of it because it's a terrible thing to have an addiction problem. They help them a lot and they feel comfortable with them because they have shared experiences like they are going through so they can know they can even go to their home If they can't get to the center, then they'll go to their home sometimes and see them, which is really a good thing.

So that's what the recovery workers do. And are, fabulous. I love them. And what I do is I supervise in the recovery centers. So I, Help them if they have a problem they can talk to me or I see them meet with them once a week and we talk About things and go over things and figure out what to do next and that kind of thing.

So I supervise quite a few Recovery workers.

Chris Langley: So you, started this seven years ago and you've expanded to full services in your community.

Pat Tucker: Yes, Yes.It's amazing. amazing

Chris Langley: It is, that's the only word it can be described as really. So this was all self funded as well. you just started small with your spaghetti dinners and then just, grew from there, really. Wow.

Pat Tucker: Now we have all kinds of grants and money, and the state gives us money. Now we have a source of income. Sometimes we raise money doing different things, but most of it is federal or state funded. It's really interesting to see and they have a play group so for the little kids They have a play group and we've got some really good family support workers, too that are very dedicated and not all of them are recovery coaches, but employees of the family resource center So it's really amazing what we've done in several years and a lot of it is due to michelle She's the the minister that started this because she's very You I'm not sure she sleeps, but I, she must sleep, but I'm not sure she does, because she's really high powered and goes, she knows how to, write grants and things like that.

that's what we're doing

Chris Langley: And what are the names of your recovery centers, Pat?

Pat Tucker: there. It's called Archways, because we have a, wonderful huge arch in our town. That was one of the founders of the town built. So we call it Archways, and Archways at each town. There's one in Franklin, one in Tilton. One in Concord and one in Plymouth. The Plymouth one is just the newest one. we got, four of them.

Chris Langley: yes, as you should be, Pat, because you're, You are saving lives and families on a daily basis with this service. You really are. So I, just so much admiration for what I've just heard. That's incredible.

Pat Tucker: I

except supervise, but, those recovery workers are really great people. They really are.

Chris Langley: yeah, big shout out to the recovery workers, that's for sure. But big congratulations to you as well, Pat. That's just an amazing story. there was something else I wanted to ask you about. You, mentioned something called, the doorways.

Pat Tucker: Yes,

Chris Langley: Can you tell us about, yeah, can you tell us about this project, how it works and how it's funded?

It just looked incredible when I looked on the website.

Pat Tucker: Yes, I, don't imagine all the states have doorways. No. ours started in 2019 and it is a place where you can go. Most of the doorways are located in hospitals, and so you can go there and they will help you with whatever you need. It's mostly a lot of recovery related. So they will do an assessment for say somebody comes in and they want to get help. So they can go to the doorway and of course the recovery center might give them a ride to the doorway and they can go in and they have LADC there and they have recovery workers. And they do an assessment for them and try to help them find out what will work best for them. So they have prevention programs, they have, they can, they know where to get people in treatment. And they also, know where to refer somebody for medication assisted treatment. they know how to get them maybe a little financial help. If somebody goes to a recovery house, we're going to talk about that too, I'm sure. they don't have money. Because a lot of people, by the time they get to treatment, They don't, nobody wants to help them anymore. So if they go to a recovery house and they need a little help getting started, sometimes the doorway could get them a little help for a month or two, get paid their rent. the doorway does all kinds of wonderful things and they do it right away. So I had a gentleman at my office and I said to him, are you interested in getting treatment? He said, yeah, I am. I don't usually say that. So I, I called up the, the recovery center and I said, I have a gentleman here can you take him to the doorway? They took him to the doorway. It was in the afternoon. They gave him transportation and That day he was in treatment. if you can do that, is what saves lives.

Because if I, if he would have gone home, he would have thought about it and he would have thought, not always, but sometimes they say, maybe I don't want to go, I'll go next week. Getting him to treatment when he really was ready is what is one thing that saves lives. So he got a treatment and he stayed there for 30 days and did well. And the idea is to get people what they need right away so that they don't, think about it and decide not to do it. Because that's what happens sometimes. they offer a whole bunch of services there at the doorway. And I think that is really important. One of the best things that New Hampshire has is the doorways and we have them. There's I think nine of them I think I'm not sure about that I think there's nine and they try to make it so that people within a hundred mile radius can get help So that's why they're in the hospitals because of course there's hospitals all over the place

Chris Langley: Yeah,

Pat Tucker: A lot of them are in the hospitals That's what the doorway is.

Chris Langley: That sounds just a wonderful service. The fact that you're able to get one of your gentlemen into treatment in the same day. That's, almost unheard of. just,

that's great.

Pat Tucker: that you had to, you would want to go to treatment and you had to get yourself on a list and then you have to wait and by the time you got there, who knows what could have happened to you. It could have gotten so much worse or you could have died actually. And this is a great thing that they can get where they need to be right away.

Chris Langley: we'll put a link to the Doorway website in the, link below this video. This podcast so people can check it out because I think you should really look at it. It's it's a wonderful service. Pat, when we first met, I asked you, I always ask all my guests is how's your state dealing with the opioid crisis?

And you mentioned that overdoses are down in New Hampshire, which is wonderful to hear. So what is it your state is doing to help your community that's hopefully working?

Pat Tucker: Okay, what I think is, I think they're down for a few reasons. One of them is the doorway. where people would get help right away. and New Hampshire is, as a state, is giving money for these services, which is really good. Um, getting people to treatment right away is good. Narcan. We're using Narcan.

We're trying to train more and more people with Narcan. I think one thing too, is there's more, health treatment because mental health and substance misuse goes right along together. So there are counselors that are mental health counselors plus they're LADCs. And so people are getting more treatment for mental health, which helps an awful lot. There's more medication assisted treatment, is very helpful to people. the sober houses. years ago, you go to treatment. And you'd get out of treatment they'd say, okay, now you run along. You see what you could do with this and wouldn't know where to go. They wouldn't have sometimes they didn't have a place to go They did not know one person that did not use drugs or alcohol so the sober houses I think have helped Because there's a safe place for people to go they meet people that are going to help them. So I think why I think if they're down, be other reasons too, but I think that's a lot of why they're

Chris Langley: I think judging on what you've spoken to me about in this podcast, Pat, the work that you and your community are doing is having such a big impact as well. Because of the services that you put in place, there's no doubt about that. you mentioned that you have a well established MATS service in New Hampshire.

what is it that New Hampshire is doing to make this more successful than other states that I've heard about?

Pat Tucker: I don't know about other States, but I know what we're doing here is, we have a lot of places that give, out math services. And I think one of the important things is that people have access to insurance now, and that's very important because then they could go to the medical. facility and get medication assisted therapy. and I think that it's just more available all over the whole state which is, really good and I think that medical personnel have, learned more about addiction and use of xylazine. I think that there's more people, like I know in my area, there's more people that are physicians and APRNs are really interested in working with people with addiction. And so that's really, good, I think. And they, some of the, most of the places, they go for MAT, have a counselor too, so they can see the MAT provider, plus they can get counseling. And if you get counseling when you're seeing the MAT provider, I think it works better.

Chris Langley: Much better combination, that's for sure.

Pat Tucker: it's more

effective, let's say.

Chris Langley: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's great to hear that New Hampshire are really tackling this because it, you're putting it all into place. All the services are required. And you also mentioned that doctors are now wanting to engage more with clients with addiction.

So clearly stigma is getting less Which is lovely. I'm going to ask you about stigma later, but it seems that's probably one of the biggest cruxes to it, to enter treatment, I think, really. But, Pat, you also worked in the criminal justice system in New Hampshire. Can you tell us about your vast experience working in the sector and what you enjoyed most about working with clients involved in the criminal justice system?

Pat Tucker: That was where I started with the Multiple Offender Program when I first started. And, I saw just great things happen there. That program was set up that people that had two or more DWIs, they would go to the jail for three days. And most people being in jail for three days was really traumatic because Up until then, that's not how it was treated until they did the multiple offender program. The jail part was really good because by the time they got to us after the jail part, they were thrilled to be out of jail. And so we had a little, So they would go to jail for three days and they would come to us and they spent a week with us. we gave them, group counseling, we gave them a lot of education. We educated them about, and what a sponsor was and what, They could help you do. And they stayed for a week. We fed them so good because we had great cooks. And, for some of them, was so great because they, got to be in a safe place where they could learn about how not to get another DWI. Because getting a DWI, and especially getting two, is not a good thing to do. for people to do. I saw what would happen there when people just got a little bit of education and I saw really good things happening there. It was one of my best jobs I ever had. It was just good working with them. And, most, a lot of the people that we had working there were in recovery. in recovery tend to go, or in recovery, or if you've got a, some kind of interest in this, That's what, who goes into this field. all of our dorm supervisors Maybe all of them, not quite, maybe all of them, but most of them were in recovery themselves. So a lot of the work went on after we got through educating them during the day. would sit and chat, the people that were the dorm supervisors, and they would learn a lot from them too. So that was really my first experience with any kind of criminal thing. Then since then, I, work a bit with people that are coming out of prison, and I love working with them because most of them just need to figure out how to stay out because nobody has come to me ever and said, I really thought that jail was a great place to be. I'd really like to go back there. None of them say that. They say, I don't want to go back there, but they don't know how not go back there. So I love working with people that are coming out of some kind of incarceration. And I've had some really Good experience with people turning their lives around. I had one gentleman and he would, every time he would get out, he would call me up. I got to come back and see you. he'd come in, he'd stay out for a little bit then he'd go back cause he didn't know how to not use. So every time though, he, every time he'd get out, he'd call me up. I got to come back.

He probably did this five or six times. And then finally he went to treatment after he got out and he's been able to stay out. now for a while. So I really just love working with motivated people like that because they're motivated to stay out of the And now in New Hampshire, I don't know about other states, but now in New Hampshire, it used to be they would put them back in jail if they just didn't If they drank once, they put them back in jail. Now the parole officers are working more with them stay out. So they will refer them to a counselor. We have other counselors that are really low working with people out of incarceration too, and they'll refer them to that, to them. And. they're going to treatment and they're getting help and they're going to the sober houses, which is really good because before They would just they would release them from jail. You get out there again. You do the best you can and I don't know where you're gonna live because they don't have any resources I don't know where you're gonna live because everybody you know is You know uses so but do try to stay out But now they are helping them stay out, which is a thing by referring them to treatment by them go to a sober house, which is

good because then they get a lot of support there

Chris Langley: yeah, you mentioned sober living houses and the programs, Pat. So can you just explain to our audience, like, how do these programs work and how do people access these services? Because it just sounds such a vital component of recovery.

Pat Tucker: for the sober houses

okay, the sober houses, that's fairly new. At least it's fairly new in New Hampshire. before, like I said, people would go back to the same environment and they didn't have a chance to not use if everybody you know was using. sober houses starting, started springing up places.

Somebody figured it out. And, so sometimes, people Have a whole motel that they'll buy and turn it all into sober houses So you can have quite a few people or people will just have Place will that will hold like maybe eight or ten people the way that works is they put in an application to get into the sober house and oftentimes again people that own the sober houses are really Involved in recovery so there are rules with the sober house You can't just yeah, you keep using substances and they they might give you a chance But then you either have to get back in treatment or you have to figure out how to stop using they have a lot of good things in the sober houses They have it's really good because they're around people that are all with the same goal.

So that's really good. And, so they help them find a job. They, learn basic skills like how to live because when people are engrossed in the addiction, they don't learn many skills. They just, idea is where are you going to get whatever it is you use next. So they teach them skills and they're around people. that are abstinent to so that they can be connected to something and they develop a really good connection there to other people they help them get to AA, they help them get a sponsor that kind of thing too so that they can it's really good for people Even if you have a family, it's good to go to a sober house for a while, because it's hard for people to go back to the family, and have to jump right back in and work really hard taking care of kids and going to your job and all that because it's great if you can have a period to work on yourself and figure out what you're doing in recovery. SOFR houses give people that opportunity and they have to eat well, hopefully eat well, and get the right amount of rest and that kind of thing that people Forget how to do when, when they're in an active addiction. they really are good, and they made a big impact on people, staying, being able to stay in recovery.

Chris Langley: Yeah. How are they funded, Pat?

Pat Tucker: how are they funded? People pay. They pay.

Chris Langley: Yep. Yep.

Pat Tucker: People have to pay to be there. Like again, the doorway, or sometimes there's funds for people temporarily. but then they have to get a job, or if they're on disability they would have to volunteer maybe somewhere, to learn responsibility. And, then people pay, and it does, come out that they pay enough that the person can run the sober house. Because of course they have to pay their mortgage or whatever they have to do. So

it's how they make them go.

yep.

Chris Langley: No, it sounds such an important part of the whole, process. It really does. It's great to hear that New Hampshire have got these as well. I'd just like to mention, you, mentioned when we first met, Pat, that you work with young people in the community. Can you tell us about the vital work that you do for your community's young people?

Pat Tucker: The young people,

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Pat Tucker: I am, we have a coalition in, the nearby town and I have been a volunteer with them for quite a while and I, what we do is we have a great person that leads that too. She's a young person that's really great and, the coalition is to try to get young people to get involved in things that are Not alcohol or drug related. we know how, what that, those things are. The first thing they usually start with is vaping. And, so we try to educate them against all those things. You can't, young people are hard to work with a lot of what they do is peer related. if their peers do it, they do it. And but we try to get them going in a different way.

So they they work in the school to educate against vaping, against substance use. they, We have a great opportunity in our town, because we have, we've started a white river, white water, water recreational place. So the, rivers come to meet at our, our town. I'm not explaining this very well. But, so there's white water rafting. And We try to get some kids interested in that rather than hanging out on the street corner. we have some classes, not classes, but groups in schools and we try to get them together and so they could talk about things because unfortunately this is a thing that is passed on from generation to generation.

So not all kids are getting what they need at home. So they have a group that gets together and they can talk about anything they want to talk about, but we try to encourage the kids getting active in things that are good for them. And the whole idea is to help them make better decisions because you can't follow them home.

You can't do anything to really make them do anything, but we groups that try to help them make better decisions and better choices because that's what it's all about. It really is about whether you're an adult or whether you're a young person but that's what they do and they have good role models and we try to talk about healthy lifestyles and a lot of what they work on too with young people is trying to good self esteem. Because if you grow up in a home where there's no direction, no structure, anything like that, it's hard for kids to have good self esteem. So we try to work on, that to help them with that. it's, hard with young people though, but just on the board for that. So I don't really do any of the, actual work.

I just, we just talk about what you could do and, that kind of thing. But I have been doing that for a while. I also, another that I help out a little bit if she needs it. Another good, dedicated person that's been working with young people for 28 years. She's been working with young people that are getting in trouble. And so once in a while I'll go and sit in on a meeting to do, get that kiddo going in a better way. Coming up with a plan of what they could do. Like sometimes we have them do community service. Community service is a great thing. for a young person because it makes them feel better about themselves, plus they're helping. And so we had I had neighbors that were elderly and they went across the street and helped them rake. that was just good because it makes them feel like they're being productive and it helps the people that are elderly. So community service is a good thing. to teach people to do. And it makes them feel better. And anything we can get a young person to do that makes them feel better about themselves is really a good thing, I think. So that's what we do with them. But that's ongoing, thing. But we do have a good coalition, we're trying. That's about all we can do with that.

Chris Langley: Yeah, it sounds wonderful the work that you're doing, the young people, and the fact that you've identified vaping as being the first problem, potential problem with health as well, because that does need addressing, that's for sure, especially with all the new vaping pens, yeah.

Pat Tucker: The vaping is really, prevalent, very much My shop, my, my office happens to be right across from the vape shop. my Lord. I've got one across from my office and one right beside me and, the traffic in there is unbelievable.

Chris Langley: Really? Oh my goodness.

That

Pat Tucker: vaping, I don't know.

Chris Langley: yeah, wow. Congratulations on the work that you're doing for the young people as well, Pat. That's highly, commendable. It really is. I just want to move on a bit because, we met through the organization NAADAC and, can you explain why you're a member and what you get from being a member of this brilliant organization?

Pat Tucker: I think I've been a, member of that ever since I've been a counselor and somebody told me it would be a good thing to do that So back then I believe whatever they told me and so I joined and I think that NAADAC is very helpful They set the standards for our profession and brings people together, which is a good thing And that is how I found you. I was just looking at their Their website and I saw that you were looking for people from New Hampshire And I said how could he not have anybody from New Hampshire? We're doing such a great job Good things here. I got in touch with you and then we decided to do this. but, they do a lot of good things for our field. they, one thing that they really do, we have a great, state representation too with the Hattica and they have All kinds of wonderful trainings that are very reasonably priced because I didn't realize that like mental health counselors, their, trainings are so much more than what we have to pay everybody has to have CEUs to get their license renewed. So it's really great that they have trainings that are reasonable and they're with professional people. They have people come from all over the country to have the trainings. So that's really good. And, think that it's just good to have, be a NAADAC. It's because you get to talk sometimes with people have a like interest because not everybody understands about substance use disorders. They certainly do not understand about that. And so it's good to have people that, that know what you're talking about. And I think it's a good, said, I've been in it since I've started counseling. So

Chris Langley: So I take it you'd recommend to someone who's considering embarking on a career in recovering addiction to look into becoming a member of NAADAC, Pat, yeah?

Pat Tucker: definitely.

Chris Langley: Yeah. excellent.

Pat Tucker: it's not that much money. It's not that much money at all. So it's a good thing. Yeah,

Chris Langley: Yeah, it's a great national organization. It's been wonderful to be a very small part of this, it really is. And meeting wonderful members like yourself has just been, it's been very inspiring for me as well. you mentioned a word earlier that I always speak about on this podcast, Pat, and that's stigma.

Yeah. of addiction and mental health. Why do you think this is still, such an issue with people wanting to access services with the, for the disease of addiction?

Pat Tucker: I think it has gotten a lot better since I've been in the field. So I started in the field. I think it's gotten a lot better, but we've got a long way to go. stigma, use disorders is, it's so prevalent because mostly what you hear about someone that has a substance use disorder bad. see them get arrested, you see them get in trouble, see them die, so that's what you think of with a substance use disorder. When someone gets in recovery. You don't hear so much about that. And that's what it's all about is for people to get in recovery. if we can get more people in recovery, that's just a good thing. But, it has been different, I think, in all these years. And the thing that I'm finding is we're a lot more people have a substance use disorder are talking about it, which is really good. Like even actors and people like that. It's not so hidden like it used to be, which is a really good thing.

And that's how we're going to stop it is by it not being hidden. And the more people talk about it. It's hard to talk about it because people do all kinds of things that are not too good if they have a substance use disorder. So I would like to see more people talk about recovery because I know people that have gotten in recovery and their life is better.

Talk so totally different than it was when they were in the substance use. It wasn't it's not even like the same person I mean they build multi million dollar businesses. They take care of their kids That's what I love about this field is when people are able to take care of their kids more and that's really so good So but I hope it's going to continue to get more and more of where there's less stigma. And I think the recovery centers are, are helping with that, too, because open. People will talk in recovery centers a lot, the people that work there, about this. So I think that they, that you can get to talk about it is really a good thing. The other, not too long ago, I was, I went to a meeting at the, center, and there was about There was a lot of policemen there. don't even know how many there were, but there were at least 12 or 14, maybe even more. And they were having a presentation there about, Narcan and about, helping people that when they get arrested, maybe they could mention to the person that they're booking, would they like treatment? And so how, and the recovery coach that was giving the presentation, she was willing for them to get, call her, she'll go over. and talk to them about treatment. And so that might be a good time to get people into interested in treatment. Why not? They're sitting in the police station. Can't get much worse than that, right?

I think that's such a great idea that, and we're trying to educate people. addiction and how it's not a moral thing at all.

It's a disease. I totally believe it's a disease. that if they can just treat it as a disease rather than a moral issue, we'll be better off. And talking about it, I think, is what is going to be the difference with the stigma. I think we're working on it. I think we're getting better.

Chris Langley: Yeah, things certainly are progressing somewhat. It's a very slow pace, but at least we're moving in somewhat of the right direction. I couldn't agree with you more what you just said then, Pat. So thank you so much for that. That was beautifully explained. last couple of questions. I ask all my guests this question because I get some very interesting but varied answers.

But can you tell me your opinion of harm reduction and how it plays such a pivotal role in recovery?

Pat Tucker: Okay, I'm so glad you asked this because, a few years ago when they first started talking about harm reduction, I said, the heck is that? What? Because we, what we were teaching years ago when they went to treatment was you get out of treatment and you go home. And you go to AA, and you get a sponsor, you go to 90 meetings in 90 days, you shut your mouth, say anything, you don't think, you do what your sponsor tells you to do, and you'll be all better. that did not work. I think the harm reduction. Like I said, when they first started talking about it, I thought that's not going to work. But the more I do it, the more I work with it, the more I understand it, it works great. And it is saving lives. It's another thing of saving lives. I think that we have to keep to figure out more ways reduce harm. now we do the needle When that first started, I thought, Oh my God, why would we want to do that? But now I understand that if people have clean needles, they can live rather than having not clean needles and they could die. So anything we can do to keep people alive. I am for. so if we can keep them alive until maybe they can get in recovery, that would be really good because if they die, then we can't help them at all. So anything we can do that's heart reduction. I really, I'm all for it now. The Narcan, we're having a lot of, give out Narcan everywhere. it's really good because you can save people's lives with Narcan. So we do a lot of that. even condoms, that's a really good thing. If we don't have unwanted children, that's a harm reduction. and now that it's, New Year's Eve, right?

Chris Langley: It

is. Yep. Yeah,

Pat Tucker: get in a DWI, that's a good thing. I was just listening to the radio and they said almost all of the are caused by people either speeding or impaired driving. So if we could cut down on that'd be a good thing. and I am working a lot with people now that do not want to stop drinking, but they want to cut down and they're having success cutting down. So if they can cut down on their drinking, not everybody can cut down, some people can. and if they can cut down, It's going to be less medical problems.

It's going to be less DWI, it's going to be less everything. I've got the concept of that now, but at the beginning I was thinking, Oh my goodness, we don't want to be doing that, that we're encouraging it, encouraging substance use. But I don't believe that at all anymore. I think we really are helping people by anything they can do to make their life a little bit better.

That's a good thing.

Chris Langley: most definitely.

Pat Tucker: works. Yes. Yes,

Chris Langley: fan of it as well myself, Pat. last question. Do you have a message for anyone who's listened to this podcast who's going through an addiction? Incredible

Pat Tucker: my biggest thing is you have a substance use disorder, don't give up. know people that have went to treatment 30 times and the 31st time it helped. Don't give up. Keep trying, keep seeing somebody, keep talking, keep doing what you can. Don't give up. I'd like to, mentioned to families too, for families not to give up. loving that person hopefully they can get in recovery someday. and if you're working in the field of, addiction, you're not supposed to say addiction anymore, but I still use that term. if you're working in the field, care of yourself because if you don't take care of yourself, you cannot do this work. This work is really it's so wonderful to do it. But if you get burnout, you can't do it. the vicarious trauma is a real thing because don't, we deal with people that have problems. That's what it's all about. So we really have to take care of ourselves. And that is so important for people in the field. I think that's about all I know.

Chris Langley: knowledge, incredible experience, Pat. It's been a genuine honour and a privilege to hear your story and to hear your work and what you're doing in New Hampshire and what you've grown. It's just something quite inspiring. So I hope people listening to this can really take note of what can be achieved.

Because you've just, you've delivered. You really have.

Pat Tucker: It's really amazing what I have seen happen in 30 years. It's really, and I still just love doing what I'm doing. just love it. And I'm going to retire sometime. I just don't know when. And if anybody wants to get in touch with me, I don't have a website, but I can give you my telephone number and they could call me.

And I, what I do quite often now is people will call me It won't be what I could do, but I Try to point them in the right way to find what they need. So if anybody wants to call me, my number is 603- 286-9584 and I will try to point them in the right way because what people are telling me is that there is such a need now for mental health counselors as well as substance use counselors nobody even calls them back.

They'll leave like messages on people's telephone for a lot of messages and nobody calls them back. I think because there's so much need now. So I try to find, I hunt around for them. I'm like a clearinghouse and I try to find what they need and I and if I can't find if they I tell them if you can't find someone you call me back and I will help you again and nobody ever calls back So I guess they're getting some help they need so that's good. I'm a clearinghouse

Chris Langley: I love it. I love it. Pat, as I said, thank you so much for your time today. And thank you for everything you're doing for your community. It really is, it's been lovely talking to you today. Thank you so much.

Pat Tucker: Thank you so much

Chris Langley: Thank you, Pat.

Do, do, do, do, do.