Ep47 Addiction Treatment Broken and Traumatized People Crisis

Ep47 Addiction Treatment Broken and Traumatized People Crisis

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley: Hi, welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest Debbie Thomas who is the CEO of The Walker Center in Idaho. Debbie is a Licensed Professional Counselor and an internationally Certified Alcohol and Drug Counselor holding a NAADAC credential as a Master Addiction Counselor. She serves on the Executive Committee, the Regional Director of the Idaho Association of Addiction Professionals and Region Five Representative of to the Idaho Board of Alcohol and Drug Counseling Certification. Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast. Debbie, it's so good to have you with us today.

Debbie Thomas: Thank you, Chris. It's great to be here.

Chris Langley: No, I really appreciate your time and obviously you are very, busy. So we're just gonna get started with the first question, shall we? So can you tell us about yourself and your journey to becoming the CEO of the Walker Center?

Debbie Thomas: Absolutely. So I've been in the field for about 35 years and it started with, to school thinking that I would help people. And when I really noticed addiction in my professional training world was when I was doing some employee assistance programs, back in the late nine or late, early nineties with Procter and Gamble and General Electric, and we had.

Engineers and scientists and they were struggling to be productive employees And as I was working with them the themes kept coming up of what I would call poor coping mechanisms. A lot of drinking, using volume, and they weren't being productive employees And so I determined that I needed to get some education and learn to help them better.

so I chose to go back to school and started, learning more about addiction and here we are 35 years later and I feel like I have a huge expertise because nobody wakes up and says, Oh, I think I'm going to be a terrible employee or hurt people's feelings.

Chris Langley: Wonderful. so you were having a, you had a job originally. You didn't really work in addiction before, but because of your client group, you decided to go back to school to re educate and to, find out more about addiction. That's incredible. That's so, since you've been CEO of the Walker Centre, tell us about the kind of services that you provide.

Debbie Thomas: Yes, I'm honored. I joined the Walker Center in 2007 as a clinical supervisor, begin with. And then in 2012, I was asked to lead our organization by our board of directors. We're a private non profit, we're CARF certified. And we have a full continuum of care. We have, addictionologist who can do withdrawal management.

We have, a teacher. traditional residential program with some really neat add ons. We're gender specific, which can be a challenge at times, but we try and really focus on what each individual needs. So our 47 bed facility has two separate wings and people programmed separately. And then we have an amazing ropes challenge course there that can use for, team building, asking for help, most of the activities in that challenge course, you can't complete by yourself as a lone individual.

You need to ask for help. in our residential program, we also have a family program that helps the people that are loving the loved one that's the identified patient, but as all of us know, this is a family systems issue, and People will identify who they want to bring into programming with them for a couple of days and, the family learns their own information about how they've been coping with this addiction, how they've been struggling.

then we have, A partial hospitalization program that is going to be opening in our little city near us. So day treatment. We have a lot of people that have the co occurring mental health and need more We have an intensive outpatient program and an outpatient program two things that I think are wonderful is we have Spanish speaking counselors.

we have a, about in one of our local communities, 47 percent of the people are, speaking. And able to deliver that service and be culturally specific has been really powerful, both in our adolescent program and our adult program. then something that I'm really proud of is we have a sober house.

And I know we'll talk about that a little bit later, but we have a eight bed sober house that we opened almost two years ago now. so really trying to fill the gaps into a full support system for people, not just, come to treatment and then say good luck, go, live your life.

Chris Langley: So it seems that you offer a very wide range of services. Do you, offer much aftercare as well?

Debbie Thomas: We do. So we have an alumni support group, and it's, a challenge in today's world. We used to have, 20 and 30 people show up to meetings physically, but as our geographic population has spread further and further through Idaho, we have people that come from Northern Idaho to our treatment center that are eight hours away.

So we have a Tuesday night meeting that's online for our alumni that they can connect and gather together in whatever way. We also do about once a month connect and gather activities that we try and do around the state. So like tomorrow night we'll have a painting thing where they're going to do a painting of their journey of recovery.

So those that can come into town will be able to have a nice evening of connection.

Chris Langley: Oh, wow. so do your clients mostly come from Idaho, the state, or do you have clients coming from other states as well?

Debbie Thomas: We have about, I think it's about 80 percent of our clients come from Idaho and then the rest come from the surrounding states. Washington, Oregon, but we have people that have come from Florida and Hawaii and our alumni after, we'll be celebrating our 50th year of treatment in 2025.

so we have alumni everywhere and, the best referral sources, people that have, made a life change and a difference. And they're like, Hey, you need to help my friend or my family member.

Chris Langley: So, so next,

next year is your 50th, anniversary.

Debbie Thomas: absolutely. the other thing that we do for our alumni is we have a private Facebook page.

It's, the Walking Sober page. And people have to be led into that group. But it's a great place for them to share celebrations and, show new babies. And I got a new job. And it's also a healthy place where they'll be like, Hey, I'm struggling today. And, the alumni will support each other, and then we have staff that are administering and monitoring that, that are interacting with our alumni every day in that, connection community.

Chris Langley: Oh, wow. that sounds amazing. So you've clearly got an exceptional service. Can you tell us about the amazing team that you have working all these, Wonderful programs.

Debbie Thomas: Absolutely, I would brag on, we have licensed professionals and certified counselors and what I would say is that they role model the hard work and the courage that it takes for people to get into addiction treatment. our huge theme is it should be really easy to get into treatment and it should be really hard to get out of treatment.

So what I find is that they have skills and we've done the skills with our administrative team. Focusing on everyone, whether it's a dietary team, the counseling team, our techs that we call client support specialists, that are with our clients, we've taught them all de escalation and motivational interviewing skills.

And we talk about, you got to dance with this addiction, don't get mad at the person. they're going to do all kinds of behaviors at times it's going to get hard and they're going to try and do things that be like, Hey, you don't love me or care about me. I'm going to get thrown out.

our team has this way of just being connected and sharing these hopefulness conversations like, Hey, it's really hard. I know you want to leave. Let's sleep on it and wait one more day. The other thing that I would brag about my team is that they continually are learning. They are bringing in new knowledge to each other.

They're sharing what they learn. They're excited. And they see people as human beings. They don't see people as a number. They don't see people as somebody that, is, bad. it's somebody that's hurting and struggling and needs that help. so I'm just really proud of them.

Chris Langley: Yeah, it sounds like you've got an absolutely incredible team because of the services you provide. It's just, sound amazing. So that's, really cool to hear. you've mentioned many programs at the Walker Centre and one of the programs I'd really like to ask you about is a sober house program. Can you explain to us how this works and what's the process for someone who wishes to continue their treatment?

Debbie Thomas: Absolutely. So what we found is. would come to treatment and they might have been couch surfing or they were in a non healthy environment and they would come to treatment and then they would leave and go back to that same environment and you know what happens is get sucked back into the same old lifestyle.

So we really determined that for people to leave from a residential program that had All of that support and hopefulness. We saw people leave on this pink cloud where they're like, everything's great. It's going to be so easy. I've got everything that I need. And it would break our heart when we'd see people relapse and then come back to treatment.

And about four years ago, we had two different cases where people had come to treatment. left, came back to treatment a couple of times in a year that they just couldn't get the skills to change and implement the skills into their daily life. And so we decided that we needed to come up with sober living because the other thing that was happening in our communities around Idaho is they were not sober places.

People were opening homes and saying come live in this place, but they weren't staffed with people. There wasn't any skills. It was like throwing a bunch of broken people in together and saying good luck. and so we decided that we were going to create a staffed sober living environment. So our sober house is unique in two ways.

One is it's co gender. so half of the house has men living in it and the other half has women living in it. it's got two big corridors where, there's a sign like, this is the women's unit and you don't go down that side. and then they communally live. And they have a rec room and a kitchen and a big dining room and a huge table that can sit 16 or 18 people, so that they are learning to live life on life's terms.

then the second thing that we did was we decided that we would have a live in manager. So we created the New York apartment complex and people are like, Oh my gosh, I want that job. I want to live there. And we have a man in long term sobriety that is the facility manager of our home. then on top of that, We have recovery support specialists who are trained to provide life skills, the day to day feedback and monitoring and accountability.

So when somebody comes to our house, it's not Hey, pay your rent and you got a safe bed to sleep in. They have to screen in. with an application that says, I want to live in an accountable place where people are giving feedback and support to each other. And so what they do is they have to have 30 hours of meaningful activity.

sometimes that's, they're actively in treatment and going to counseling and that's what they're doing. Other times they're at the stage where they're already out in the world working, but they have to create a schedule with the team and say, this is where I'm going. This is what I'm doing. they sign in and out of the house.

They participate in life skills every week. So five hours a week, they might be learning. Cooking and budgeting, or they might be learning how to sew, might be learning how to, manage their car. We have, alumni that are like, Hey, you got to learn to check that oil in the car. You can't just gas it and go if you're going to get your old beater to keep getting you to work and back.

so we just create the life skills based on what people are struggling with. and then we have community service that they do, and the community service has been amazing. There's a local community garden where people will go and help grow vegetables and then they turn around and give them to us and we taught all the residents to can their food and they were like, huh, didn't know it was so easy and this is amazing and a lot healthier and less expensive than going out to eat three and four times a week.

So if somebody wants to get involved in that, they, there's an application on our website. They can call us and say, I want to be involved. And we, have people that self pay for that. We have people that in our state use the state funding where they can have 90 days if they're in treatment and they meet certain criteria.

state Department of Health and Welfare helps pay, part of their, program fee. And then they, might have to pay five or ten dollars a day to live there. And that gives them a chance to find a part time job, figure out a budget, get their feet under them. So we've, since we've opened, there's been about 50 people that have been through the house.

And, yeah, and it's just amazing.

Chris Langley: So that, that sounds like you're, giving your clients some real life skills as well as everything else, which is so needed. Have you, how have you noticed with your, relapse, numbers with people who've gone through sober living? that must be, what are the numbers coming, like coming back from, that sounds like you've got

everything, pretty much tied up.

Debbie Thomas: we do have things tied up, but this is a cunning baffling disease that, people

Chris Langley: Yes.

Debbie Thomas: are struggling with. And what we found is when people They relapse really significantly. they're cunning, baffling, they get secretive and leave the house and they, turn off their phone and they go run and do what their addiction wants them to do.

our team finds themselves being very sad upset by those kind of things. But what we've had is we've had people that have lapsed and, We make it to where you don't necessarily have to get thrown out of the house. and the community has a voice. So if somebody has been like one example, somebody was doing great.

a death in a family. They were struggling with work. and they, We just impulsively went to the store and got a bunch of beer and drank, and then they came back to the house and they were under the influence. And what we said was, thank you for coming back to a safe place, and then the community has to decide, is this going to be a relapse trigger for everybody?

Does this person need to find a different safe place to stay for a couple days before they come back? And we really individualized those things. And in one case, the person went to our local crisis center where they could stay for a couple of days. Not be shunned, but okay, you're a trigger right now for others and you got to put some hard work in.

so the relapse is real. we've had people that relapsed and ended up in jail because they did something, driving recklessly and we're like, oh goodness. but the, opportunity is there. So we've had more success than we have, those heartaches.

Chris Langley: I can imagine. I really can. It's just wonderful to hear because you also have a scholarship programme that I'd like to mention. it just sounds amazing to hear of. Can you tell us, how do people apply for this programme and what's involved with the programme?

Debbie Thomas: Yes, we, it was actually right in 2019, we were seeing people relapsing and, at that point we had a 28 day traditional residential program and not a lot of services around people. There wasn't, partial hospitalization, a lot of times people would go back to a community where there wasn't an established treatment program.

So that's what kind of led us to think we need sober housing, we need longer lengths of stay. So we started working with our State Department of Health and Welfare, and we ended up getting a SAMHSA grant, that allowed for 60 days of treatment. followed by a year of continuum care with a social worker.

So a lot of that dollars is associated with opiate and stimulant dollars. So our scholarship right now, we have 40 slots that we started in October that we're filling. People do have to be a resident of Idaho. a resident of Idaho. And if they are a female, they can have dependent children or be pregnant and be in this program.

Doesn't matter what substance they're using. If it is an individual that's not pregnant or parenting, then they have to have a stimulant or opioid use disorder because that's the money that's there. And they would just call our, our office. They can go online to the walkercenter. org and there's a link to ask for the scholarship dollars.

You can email help at the walkercenter. org and are screened to get into that program. Based on motivation, and the motivation is, It's, just like anything, I'm willing to stay in a residential program for 60 days and I'm willing to have social workers and recovery coaches in my life for a year, celebrating the successes and problem solving all the things that come up.

So it's an amazing program and we've had tremendous success over the last five years with that program.

Chris Langley: Goodness me, that sounds incredible. It's really does sound amazing. The fact that you have such support for such a length of time as well, and especially with the social workers and the fact you work with young families as well. That's lovely to hear. Um, so how do you receive referrals? What's the process for any of your clients and what's the process for someone wanting to come to your service for help?

Debbie Thomas: so we take referrals from anyone and everywhere. we just want to help people regardless of the funding source. So life in Idaho and probably lots of other places can be complicated, so people can Self pay and cash pay for treatment. People in Idaho have Medicaid, that Medicaid will pay for treatment.

we take almost all the third party insurances. so all we need people to do is call and then we will, ask them a series of screening questions, mostly to make sure that they're, the right level of care, that we can meet their needs. there is a few exclusionary criteria. if somebody is Actively suicidal.

We can't take them because we are not a locked unit. We can do withdrawal management. We have an addictionologist that's on our staff. we just say, And you can call us at 800 227 4190. You can look at our Facebook page, and there's a link that says, Call Now, so you don't even have to remember the phone number.

you can do the help button that says help, and it'll let you know. Send it right to our team and our team will talk you through whether it's you, the individual that's struggling or the family member. We help navigate what I call the complication of funding. How do you get Medicaid or how do you, Figure out what your insurance co pay or deductible or out of pocket maximums are.

We let people know. and then we do have a little bit of that scholarship money, and we have a little bit of flexibility on helping people put in payment plans together, so just call.

Chris Langley: Yeah, so your, team help with dealing with the insurance side of things as well.

Debbie Thomas: Absolutely. We have experts that have, I have one member of my team that's been in the Walker Center Business Office for 20 years and, can figure out copays and deductibles and, people on what they're getting into because nobody wants to get partway into treatment and be like, oh, I can't afford this or I'm angry because I didn't know what was happening.

so we really help people understand how to get the care that they need.

Chris Langley: Yeah. Yeah, that's very important, obviously. So that's, great that you have that member of team that can help, that can guide someone through that process. I'm just going to talk about your, yourself a little bit, Debbie, because you've been a long term member of NAADAC and the Executive Regional Director of the Idaho Association of Addiction Professionals.

Can you tell us about your work and why someone who is about to begin their training in this sector, This rather expansive field and why they should become a member and what will NAADAC do to support them.

Debbie Thomas: Absolutely. So what I find is not in a traditional school programming enough information about addiction. So if I was a student and I was a student years ago in the 80s, I had one class in addiction and not a lot's changed. If you go to a college and you're going to become a coursework of social work or a coursework to become a licensed professional, You're going to get one or two classes in addiction and that's not enough like this is a complicated field and people need to learn so The reasons anyone should get involved with NAADAC, I see as twofold.

If you join NAADAC, there is exceptional trainings and information. There's regional, There's the national conferences and you can get trained up. This field. The other thing is the professionals that join NAADAC. They are collaborative. You get to, as a new person, there's not a hierarchy.

Like when I was at the NADAC conference, I'm talking to somebody that's six months into the field and I'm very humbled because they look at me and they're like, Oh my gosh, you're a CEO and you've been in the field for 35 years and there's no hierarchy. It's great. How can I help you? And I will learn from you and you will learn from me.

So those professional connections that you get through NAADAC are really powerful. The reason I got involved with Idaho NAADAC, we didn't have an affiliate for a long time, but about five years ago we were finding that the state was struggling to get more and more professionals and We have a certification board that's IC and RC, so the consortium has certain credentials that people can have, and if you move from a state, you can just transfer your license easily.

But a lot of our surrounding states had NAADAC credentials, and our state didn't have a way of accepting those NAADAC credentials, unless it was a MAC, but like a, N C A C 1 or N C A C 2, which are equivalent to a C A D C 1 and a C A D C 2. they didn't transfer easily, so as a business person, I'm like, I need to hire people.

So we started saying, how can we lobby with our legislators to add some credentials to the state of Idaho? And, had meetings over the last four or five years and actually in January, our legislature is going to look at changing our state code to add a couple of credentials that are different credentials, but it's not competition for what's already in our state.

It's adding to the workforce. So those are some reasons to get involved with NAADAC that on a macro level you can lobby, and on a very personal level you can meet people that are like minded and want to help people with addiction.

Chris Langley: Yeah, it's an amazing organization. I've been very privileged to meet many members from NADAC and it's great to obviously meet you today.

and obviously the work that you do is just, wonderful to hear. So you mentioned Idaho just then. And so how, Obviously with the opioid crisis that's going on in the country and now around the world it seems, how is Idaho as a state coping with the crisis?

Debbie Thomas: Yeah, I think, like anything, they put dollars into the opioid crisis, and, I guess I have to say I've been in the field for a long, time, and that I want to acknowledge that we have an opioid crisis, but we have an addiction crisis. We have a Broken people that are traumatized crisis. and so I've been around long enough that we had a meth crisis and then we had a crack crisis and now we have an opioid crisis.

but what I was proud of is that Idaho did look for those dollars. began to. help educate and do prevention as well. they did a lot of education with family members and young people about, harm reduction. here's Narcan, so if somebody's going to overdose you, here's how you save your loved one's life.

we were able to get Narcan into the hands of people in Idaho. we were able to put dollars in, like this, federal grant that came through. It was opioid dollars that they, got from the federal government. So I think they've been really educating people on the opioid crisis is real. And when fentanyl hit, we are, a pipeline up and down the coast.

And when fentanyl hit, it's this is deadly. need to make sure people know that this is deadly. Going out and using one little time is not oh, I'm gonna smoke a little pot occasionally. It's laced, it's serious, and that people will die. So they really did some good campaigns.

Chris Langley: Yes, so you just mentioned obviously about fentanyl, so have you, had examples of, I've, heard of many people in these podcasts who said that they've had clients who've been smoking marijuana and have tested positive for

fentanyl. Has this been something that's, been not common but heard of in your state would you say?

Debbie Thomas: It has been and I was actually talking to a person that's an alumni now and They had started using a long time ago and, stopped using some of their, what they call their harder drugs. And Oh yeah, I'm just going to go back to smoke and pot. That, was their journey to full recovery. And they were describing how marijuana today is not like it was in the past.

It is laced with other things. It can be stimulating. It can be all kinds of things. So yes, we've had that. We've also had people that, thought they had heroin and it wasn't. it was laced with fentanyl. we as a Walker Center have had a tragedy where somebody passed away, came through that scholarship program and, social workers were working with the person and they relapsed one night and, it, they lost their life.

It was, fentanyl in the substance, so it's tragic and, I know some states have fentanyl test kits. I don't believe Idaho has gotten there yet in the harm reduction process where you can carry a test kit that's in Idaho considered paraphernalia.

Chris Langley: It's considered paraphernalia,

Debbie Thomas: It can be.

Chris Langley: a testing. Goodness me. Wow.

That's, hopefully things will progress a little bit more as we, go through the years. But that's, I'm quite shocked to hear that. Sorry, I beg your pardon. You've

taken me back a little bit there,

Debbie Thomas: Idaho is amazing, but we also are a very conservative state where a lot of people Just didn't realize the seriousness of things and we've had our struggles like we originally when it was time to do NARCAN, they're like, oh, we should get NARCAN into the hands of everybody. every family member, every loved one, make it easy to get.

And then there was this fear and pushback about. Oh no, it should just be in the hands of law enforcement and EMS and et cetera, that somehow our community thought you had to be highly trained to be able to use Narcan. so it took a little bit of time to educate and that's the conservative nature of we don't want to jump in and make things worse and then so sometimes we're slow to to get the, things to the people that need it but it's, making a change now.

Chris Langley: That's that's that's great.

Debbie Thomas: yeah.

Chris Langley: Absolutely. Absolutely. would you say the word stigma come the word stigma comes up a lot on our podcast, Debbie. So can you tell us why you think that stigma is still playing such a role in people not wishing to access services for their addiction or mental health?

Debbie Thomas: Yeah, stigma is huge and we do a campaign that's called Bust the Stigma just for that purpose. And I think the stigma is there because people are hurt and angry. addiction is cunning, baffling, and the person that is addicted lies and cheats and steals and hurts people's feelings. And, you have to be really, smart to be a successful person in addiction.

so you manipulate other people. And so that stigma comes because people are like, Hey, you told me you were going to change. and people say that I'm going to change, but they can't because their brain is hijacked. so I think the stigma is there because people have great intentions. they've had their bottom and they're like, man, that night, that relationship, that whatever was terrible, awful.

And I want to change. But unless they get treatment and help their brain heal and address the underlying trauma and sadness and hurt and shame and all the other things, wake up and they can't change because one, it's a medical issue where the neurobiology of your brain has been altered, so you need medical intervention.

And there's this environmental aspect where You need to change people, places, and things that you do. if I was a diabetic and I had, donuts around me all the time, I would really struggle. so people have to learn to change. And it's hard to ask for that help when the people around you are mad at you.

and so that's goes back to our treatment program of Don't be mad at the person. You might be upset with some behavior. You can hold people accountable and be firm, but you have to make sure that they know that I see you. There's hope for change. because stigma is real. People are angry and hurt and, yeah, we just got to help people understand this, a brain disease.

Chris Langley: Yeah, most definitely. Most definitely. It's been interesting to speak to people about stigma because it's just, it has such a prevalent issue for addiction treatment. It really does. It's very sad, but hopefully things are progressing somewhat now. But, the last couple of questions, Debbie, I ask all my guests this because I get some very interested and varied answers, but can you tell me what your opinion of harm reduction is and how it can play such a role in recovery?

Debbie Thomas: So harm reduction is really needed for exactly that reason that I talked about is. disease of addiction, substance use disorder, is life threatening, and I am a person who I would want everybody to have a completely substance free brain and live without having that struggle of use. that's not possible.

Not every person wants that choice. Some people want the autonomy of, I want to use a little bit, or some people aren't there having the support to be able to stop. So harm reduction is. I would rather have the person alive than dead. so being able to have things like, test kits or Narcan or all the medication assisted therapies that we have now that will help a person in their journey, are highly important.

I'm glad we have, we have Suboxone that we will utilize with patients and say, is this a step that you need to use on the journey? And, times people are like, yes, I'm ready to be off of it now. But harm reduction is important because people will die if we don't go every pathway to helping.

Chris Langley: Yeah, most definitely, just last question, Debbie, do you have a message for anyone listening to this podcast who's going through addiction, who might want some help?

Debbie Thomas: I do, I would say, I see you. I know you're hurting. there is help. it's going to be hard work, but be courageous and reach out to someone. there are hundreds and thousands of people like myself and others that want you to not have to be struggling. And it's really, hard, but it's really courageous to ask for the help.

And, you're not bad. You're not bad. You are a human being that is struggling and hurt and we all have struggles. We all have hurts. We've all had traumas in our lives and it's okay. So just have that courage to pick a phone up, send a message and say, I need help. cause my team will see you.

We will help you.

Chris Langley: Could you just tell us again, Debbie, how to tell our listeners how to best contact you and find your service online again, please?

Debbie Thomas: Absolutely. So online we are thewalkercenter.org. You can call us at 800 227 4190. you can go on to our webpage and there's all those fancy click the button and it'll call for you. You can put in an inquiry and us an email on the system. And, other way is just help at the walker center dot org is an email.

So help at the walker center dot org.

Chris Langley: Wonderful. Debbie, it's been a real privilege and an honour to speak to you today and thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule. I'd just like to end on this quote that I found. Debbie was also recently awarded a Lifetime Achievement Award by the Idaho Counselling Association.

I'd just like to read this quote that I feel needs to be heard after today's podcast. It says, What makes Debbie's work even more impactful is her heart. She brings compassion, resilience, and a personal touch to everything she does, whether serving her clients, leading our team, or volunteering in her community. Her passion for helping others and inspiring hope is evident in every aspect of her life.

Debbie Thomas: Thank you, Chris. And this has been a year of humility for me because the Idaho Counseling Association did award me that award. And I have to say NAADAC also the National Conference in D. C., I was named the Professional of the Year for NAADAC. And I just still think of myself as this baby professional in the bottom of the field working hard every day.

And I just had to open my eyes and realize that I am a seasoned professional that people look up to. And, been very humbling and very honoring. So thank you for acknowledging that, Chris. And I hope to continue to do this and inspire the next generation to help people.

Chris Langley: I can certainly tell you're going to do that, Debbie. That's for sure. It's been lovely talking to you today and it's been wonderful to hear about your service and your career and everything that you've done. And obviously what you're going to be doing in the future just sounds amazing. So thank you so much for your time today.

I really appreciate it.

Debbie Thomas: Chris, have a great day.

Chris Langley: And you. Thank you.

Do, do, do, do, do.