Ep42 Addiction Treatment The business of keeping people alive

Ep42 Addiction Treatment The business of keeping people alive

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley: Hi, welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast. The podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host Chris Langley. I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest Jeffery Harvey.

Jeffery is the Clinical Director at Jackson Comprehensive Treatment Center in Mississippi. He's experienced in group therapy and strategic planning, public speaking, program development and community outreach. Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place podcast, Geoffrey. It's so good to have you with us today.

Jeffery Harvey: Thank you for having me.

Chris Langley: Really appreciate your time. I know you're very, busy, so we're just going to get started. So can you tell us about yourself and your journey to becoming the clinical director at Jackson Comprehensive Treatment Center?

Jeffery Harvey: I give a short version, but I always tell people that, I'm the clinic director, I'm the CEO of my own, natural prevention mentorship and consultation. Do a lot of public speaking, a lot of trainings and things like that, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I always tell people the most important thing that I am, that I'm a, I'm an alcoholic and I'm a drug addict. I, I have the credentialing, to do what I do, in all honesty, my journey started with the disease of addiction. And that's why I take it so serious. I learned a lot of credits in college to get certifications to be able to do it. But. I got a set of skills, from the lash of alcoholism and drug addiction that no classroom could give me.

So I tell people I earned it with my blood, sweat, and tears. And looking in hindsight back at it, that really just, it, it qualifies me a part of my qualification to do what I do. But I also do believe that people who don't have the disease can work with us. So I started my journey with the local community mental health center as a peer support specialist.

I love peer support. peer support can bridge that gap between clinical services, medical services. When, people like me walk into your clinic or your treatment center, don't want to listen, but I will listen to somebody who been where I am. if the peer support tells me where I, cause I'm, I look at the peer support and I'm like, you, don't look like you've been on drugs or had a problem with alcohol. it never failed my next question. I always is what did you do? And the peer support can tell me like, look, I know you, I had to listen to my counselor. I had to listen to me. So and so had to do this, had to do that. And that kind of engaged me in treatment. So I started off as a peer support specialist. I went on to, get sober and fortunate enough for me that I had gotten back in college. and I was getting my bachelor's degree. And, doing like my last two years of undergraduate, my addiction just started to spiral out of control. I'm also a big advocate of drug courts. I had gotten into some, criminal, trouble with the judicial system, profit, of course, with addiction. And, so I met this judge, judge Winston kid, he's a magistrate over highest County drug court. and that man, my life. He believed in me when, I didn't even believe in myself, I honestly, I thought he was picking on me, but we look back at it because now I'm on his treatment team. and I look back at it and he just saw something in me, but I thought he was picking on me, but he was really trying to drive me to greatness. so I think he was a guy seeing. So anyway, I did peer support. I did finish my bachelor's degree while I was on drug court. I went on to do communities, support specialist, formerly known as a case manager.

I worked on a crisis team with the same community mental health agency. I went on to start a program called Operation Let Go. I got a promotion to do drug, alcohol and violence prevention for any city youth in Jackson, which we have a big issue with. And that's where my, side business, natural prevention came from because there is a need there.

who does this work, has an understanding that prevention works. A lot better than treatment. The outcome measures are a lot better, but it just takes a while to see, work because, talking 5, 10 years, taking a second grader and watching him go all the way up through high school or middle school.

and says that if you can keep it from doing drugs to the time they 22, chances are they won't track. so I did drug and alcohol prevention work, which I love working with children. Fun fact about me, I always say when I started, I would never work with children. And my creator had a funny way of showing me like, no, son, you're going to do what I asked you to do, or I'm gonna make this difficult for you. so I did drug, alcohol, violence, prevention, a lot of parades, a lot of community engagement, a lot of going to schools, educational, curriculum for children, too good for drugs and violence, skills. And I found it very fruitful. But by that time I had started the process of being getting my master's degree. And I don't say these things to tell I wrap it up with, good that I do is a, is an example more of a reflection of what my creator can do,

I'm just the, not, I don't say this about other people, just myself. I'm just a garden variety, drug addict and alcoholic who will morally steal your wallet and help you look for it. Then I am to help you. and through the journey of recovery, I found it, creator changed my heart. I always used to ask, do I have to have this disease, right? go drink, they can have, but they can take it and leave it. I can't. So anyway, I did drug alcohol prevention. I finished my master's degree, went ahead and got my master's in clinical mental health counseling. I started the first outpatient opioid use disorder program in the state of Mississippi funded by the department of mental health of Mississippi called Ground Zero.

We helped a lot of people get sober, get them over remission with medication management over 12 months. And then I was offered the position to run that department that I had worked all those positions on, here recently in the last three months, I've been appointed by the mental Heinz County Board of Supervisors.

I'm a mental health commissioner for Heinz County. so I've had the opportunity to do a lot of great things. And I, I say those things not to brag, but I will say this. I earned that with my blood, sweat and tears. And, I didn't understand why I had to have this disease. But when I look back at it, it was because my creator knew with his help, if one man has to go through it, it's all about bearing your own cross, one man can go through it and help thousands of people, which I've had the luxury of doing, then I'll say this, no childhood molestation that I went through, no drug addiction, no, any of the things I went through make it bad because it all made me who I am. I love who I am today. I love what I do. So I hope that wasn't too long winded.

Chris Langley: That was incredibly inspiring. wow. That was one of the most fascinating introductions I've done so far on the podcast. Jeffery, thank you so much for sharing that information with me. One thing I would like to just come back to you said that the drug court that you attended, you're now working with the judge that was dealing with your cases.

Is that right?

Jeffery Harvey: He's a good friend of mine,

Chris Langley: Wow.

Jeffery Harvey: kid. I'm gonna keep

name. He's going to be mad at me. I'm gonna try to meet up with him later this evening. it's funny to me that I started out and I was standing in front of these judges.

Chris Langley: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: foragers, possession charges, stuff to just, common occurrences that to be honest, most inner city, minorities, especially, but I go far enough to say most inner cities.

It doesn't matter what your race is when you're poor. I grew up poor, but when I was with my grandmother, I never felt poor. She taught me to cut the grass, watch the car, go to church, be good to people. She taught me all these things that you can't buy. And I never grew up feeling poor, but I, when I've had, I had to go stay with my mother eventually.

And I had a great mother who loved me. She was just a single parent and she did the best she could. But, I always like to tell people that. But, so when I got with Judd's kid, I'm in front of all these different judges that now I bumped shoulders with him because we work in these circuits and I come in and speak for him and help him with it. But when I met him, man, I thought this man was like, I never forget. He gave me the option. So you go to jail and you can go to treatment. Which one you want to do? And I told him it don't sound like I have a choice. He saw you and he had his glasses where he's a very smooth guy. He say you have a choice.

You might not like the options. So I just knew I couldn't out think him, which the alcoholic in the attic, I'm sorry, the alcoholic and the person with a substance use disorder. We are egomaniacs with inferiority complexes, So I go in here and first I want to be the egomaniac with this judge. Tell me how smart that is. anyway, he, challenged me and I grew to respect him because he was everything that I wasn't. And So he kept pushing me. And what really made me admire him was that even after I finished drug court, I'm coming up on 10 years of sobriety in the next couple of months. Even when he challenged me, he was always trying to push me to greatness.

I just thought he was being a hole, but he was never mean. He was never sarcastic. He was never degrading or belittling to me. And I always tell my patients those things when I, I still have direct contact with them. And I always tell them, I never belittle you. I never degrade you. I never say anything that's not true, but I will tell you the truth. I'll tell you how to carry the cabbage and I'm not going to hold back. and he did that with me. and it made me admire him because I'm bigger than him. I have his biggest statute in him, but he wasn't afraid of me. And he loved me until I learned how to love myself. And most importantly, even after I finished drug court, he followed me through the process.

He's still calling check with my mother. And I'm like, I know this guy sees hundreds of people, told me his heart was in it. And he told me, he said, Jeffery, always don't listen to people. He said, fill them. And I never forgot that. I try to feel people and remembered, when I was where they are. So yeah, I'm a big advocate for drug courts from Rankin County to Hines County. I believe in them. I believe those are the people who would be in prison because left up to my own devices, most inner city youth where I started, who were in the predicament I was in. I faced I was on an MDOC probation and clearly I violated and caught four new charges, felony charges, and it was divine intervention.

It had to be a guy because I was preparing to go to prison. Where I'm from is a rites of passage. once you go to prison, you're a man. It's sad as that sound, it's like God said, no, I got other plans for you. And, He walked me through the process. I was able to get sober, see what recovery looked like in the inner city.

A lot of times. I know where I'm from these, I won't call their name because it's, autonomy, I won't call their name, but you, I think you follow what I'm saying. These support groups, they have been around for a long time. we don't, I didn't know anything about those places. are non offices. I didn't know anything about that. I just thought, my grandmother's a 98 year old lady. Now she always taught me, you just pray to God and tell him to take it away from you. thought I could pray it away. And I came to realize that, down here in the South, we have this idea that, God will take away my schizophrenia.

He'll take away my God, not going to knock. a couple of codeine cough syrup out of my hand. He's not going to knock a blunt out of my hand. He's not going to knock a PCP laced cigarette out of my hand. But he will send me a therapist. He will send me a treatment center. He will send me these people he has crafted their hands to help me. And, I have to reach out and I had to get to that point of desperation that I just, I didn't want to live like that no more. And, he laid it in front of me and I, my guts was in my hand and I was desperate enough to do it. And I, man, I don't want to curse on your thing, but I said, I'd be damn, man, the best decision I ever made in my life was to surrender and accept that somebody else knew better for me than I knew for myself.

That was the best thing I could ever do. And it's the hardest thing. So yeah, I'm a big advocate for drug court. I believe we keep people like me out of prison and I'm not to my own home, but I will say this, if you give us a chance, it's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, you take the dope away from us. are good people. We loving people. We can't people. And I go far enough to say we're above average intelligent people. And I say that because at the way we have to live our life when we use it. We had to be smart, creative, tactical, not get killed, try not to go to jail. Like we can be very savvy people. We just have to get sober. And rechannel that energy.

Chris Langley: Wow, that was credible

Jeffery Harvey: I'm gonna

Chris Langley: that was

Jeffery Harvey: I'm not going to, I don't try to sound, I'm going to give it to you raw. Just really what it is what I think society wants to hear from us. What makes you all tick, There's this other book that I read that I won't call his name, but we read it in churches.

I'll say, and I, grandmother tried to give it to me and I just, couldn't get it. I just couldn't get an imaginary that I can pray to it and say, yes, But I didn't have a relationship with it until I went to this other place and they put me in this other book that was like that book, but it was the one on one version for, beginners. And it introduced me to it and it walked me right back into what my grandmother had been trying to give me the whole time. didn't make me feel forced to do it though.

Chris Langley: Wow. this is an understatement, but big congratulations on everything, that you've achieved, Jeffery. It's so inspiring hearing this. And I'd like to speak about your service as well, that you provide your community. Because I've obviously looked online and looked at what you do, and it just seems such an amazing service and what you've done for your community.

It's just incredible. Can you tell us about some of the services that you offer your community? Sure. Absolutely.

Jeffery Harvey: keep that part brief. I don't want to take over the

Chris Langley: No, it's fine. No, please do.

Jeffery Harvey: here at Jackson Comprehensive Treatment Center, we consider ourself the premier cream of the crop, harm reduction treatment, and we provide Medicaid assisted treatment services. Research shows that those medications, methadone maintenance, Suboxone, Subutex, Vivitrol.

Some are narcotics, some are not narcotic. we provide those medications. We have an in-house dispensary. We have a nursing team. We have a nurse practitioner and a doctor who oversees the entire process and does it in a safe way. A side note, I always like to tell people this, who don't understand. They say, isn't that cross addictive?

Is this medication addictive? Yes, it is. But I would like to piggyback on it and say this, when you come into this clinic, you have a medical doctor, nurse practitioner, or a pharmacist or a nurse. These people are trained to give you these medications to keep you alive. And I always like to give the story of a patient that I had 24 years old, four kids. Three felony charges. Didn't even graduate high school who was on her way to prison. She had three pending charges. She came into a program. I started, she got sober. and it was a rough road for her. She got sober. she got granted, probation because she got sober. And she got a job and she became a taxpaying citizen.

And with that job, she realized she didn't like a job. She wanted a career. So she went back to college and she got her associate's degree. Then she got her bachelor's degree. And now this girl been sober five and a half years, finna be six years. She got a custody of, Oh, no custody of any of her kids. College degree, custody of her four kids. She's married, nice home. works. And I tell that story because I don't care what medication you take. We have such a stigma on these medications, and I just try to tie two of these questions together, because I think they coincide together. there's such a stigma on the medication.

it's addictive, or it's this. I have borderline high cholesterol. Nobody knows how many pills I take a day. Nobody. That's between me and my doctor. Nobody asks me, how long are you going to be taking that medicine? Possibly the rest of my life. But it improved the quality of my life, I have good health.

Now my numbers are fine. I go to work, I pay taxes and that medication is an FDA approved medication and is socially accepted. I don't think it's anybody's right to judge a person or how long they should take a medication that clearly saves their life. They save their lives. It improves the quality of life and it turns them from. The potential to be tax depleting citizens to taxpaying citizens. Now that medication is part of our service, but research shows that medication in combination with good sound clinical services, which we offer here, individual counseling, group counseling, family counseling, and peer support services.

Cause I have a peer support here with me. They got sober in a prior program. He's been sober three years. he is amazing. They all love him. So we provide recovery support services, assistant treatment, therapy, and I just do it all. I'm the director, but I tell people I'm the maintenance man. Every patient that says, oh, that's Jeff, he the maintenance man, because I go around cleaning up, and if a patient needs me for something, I'm the first one out there to make sure they get everything they need.

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: we saw an increase in the amount of patients who get take home here with our phasing system. Because we have incentivized treatment. I don't believe in, punitive treatment. I got sober the old fashioned way. Sit down, shut up. If you don't like it, leave. We'll go back to jail. I got sober because I was desperate. just, I was desperate. I didn't want to die like that. But I, through that process, I learned that you don't have to be ugly to help somebody get sober.

We don't have to treat people like less than a human being just because they in a bad situation. So here we roll out the red carpet for them that we're not going to, do anything that's going to help, enable them in any way. But if it's something we can do to help them, we definitely going to do that. we stick to we want a strong fidelity of our program where we make sure counseling services, peer support services are happening with the medication. and we also do resources. We have, we, we, outsource, for have psychiatric issues. don't treat it here, but we have great community partners like region nine has baby health region eight, places.

We have detox facility set up for our patients in case they have a stumble or they come in and need to detox. We refer them out. they're done, they come back to us. We pick them up and we keep going. so everything's in line where we can keep them in their medication, whether they go to treatment or detox. And I think your question.

Chris Langley: Wow. what don't you do?

Jeffery Harvey: All right. we, have to do it all. We

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: We

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: gotten funding from the state. we have patients who pull up in Volvo's and have soccer balls in the back and then we got patients who pull up on a bicycle around the street trying to get up here to the old dose and see their counselors.

we, are all across the gamut. We have doctors, we have attorneys, we have all kind of people who come. not specifically doctors, but the point I'm making is we have people from all walks of life who walk into the clinic and we want to help everybody. So thing we don't want to happen is somebody can't receive services with us simply because they don't have insurance or have money. so we solicited funds in the Department of Mental Health, in the store team over there for Mississippi Department of Health are big advocates of ours. they help us with funding for those indigent patients. So we just trying to fight the good fight, fight the fentanyl crisis.

Chris Langley: Absolutely. So what's the process for someone who wants to come to your service, Jeffery? So can outside agencies contact you? How does someone?

Jeffery Harvey: can.

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: can. I gave you the number. I can give you the number to, typically what I do, we have a dashboard here and it's called a dashboard where we accept inquiries. I won't call the name of it, but if you call this 1 800 number, they will go ahead and schedule you for your admission date time.

They give us a little background information. So we know what we call him when we call you. We call it an inquiry. I answer those on the weekend. Personally, I call back on my cell phone. for anybody who knows me to speed the process up, I use my cell phone number. If it was you, for example, say, hey, my niece, she's doing this.

Then I say, look, you just call me Monday morning, and I'm gonna get it in here and we can go back and do all the little stuff prior to that. We can do that later. Our main goal is to get people involved in treatment. I can give her my email. You can email me. Or you can give me a phone call. we have two different numbers.

We have a dashboard where we can accept admissions and get them scheduled right then through the admission, or you can call me and I can have the receptionist to put them in and we get them in as soon as possible. Our business operating hours for admissions are five. say five to nine, but we'll take them all the way up to 10.

We don't want to turn anybody away who will come back tomorrow. And then they go out tonight and they don't make it tomorrow. So I have my staff trained to think like that. If

they are here, strike while the iron hot. Get them in. Get them engaged in treatment. We can buy them another day. We're not We don't believe in, "Oh, you're failing drug tests. Let's put them out."

Chris Langley: There you go. Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: what we're dealing with, the fentanyl crisis to put somebody out of treatment. But let's, see it like this put somebody out of treatment with a substance use disorder is an automatic death sentence. So we're not surprised if somebody has a lapse relapse or somebody, they didn't have for the, part of treatment. a part of the process. And again, we don't put them out for that because that's a different sentence. And that is not what harm reduction is. People tend to think harm reduction is. you should be totally abstinent. That's not harm reduction. Harm reduction is basically this and a lot of clinical people have a problem understanding this. If you were doing fentanyl, heroin, taking, prescription opioids, if you were taking them nine, days a week, if we can get you down to three days a week, we reduce the risk of you harming yourself more than 50%. And it's a lot easier for me to get you from three days to nine, then to get you from seven days to nine. So we don't really have a punitive system here, but we do get some high risk patients who we engage in this and stuff. We do some, treatment things, some addendums, all some additional services to try to see what we can do to get them, they can work towards, their goal.

We were person centered here. We believe in the patient taking part in the treatment because they more likely to do it if they take part in the process. Yeah.

Chris Langley: That's right. That's right. So someone could just turn up on the doorstep in the morning and they can see someone straight away. Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: Tomorrow morning.

1935 Lakeland Drive, suite 900. You can walk right up to the door at 4:59 am. We'll open it an hour early. Actually, how are you doing? Need a cup of coffee? I need it. I'm having a problem with this. you just come on in and let us help you. You can walk right to the reception desk and do a walk in.

You can, I don't know if you were posted on there, but you have my both phone numbers, my email address. I'm look, I'm not, Yeah, I'm not that important. My cell phone not that important. not that important to what somebody can't call my cell phone. They can call my cell phone. They can call the other number.

They can walk straight in the front door. They can do, they can email me and we get them set up just as quick as possible. We generally try to have them in within 24 hours. We work with the, all the major hospitals are right up the street from us, the University of Mississippi Medical Center, St.

Dominic's, the Baptist, and now we're taking referrals from all of them. and what was surprising to me is a lot of them were like, we didn't know services like this were offered. Yeah, send them down here to us, because they, don't know what to do. Somebody walked me in there in a psychosis or they, don't know what to do. having an opioid use disorder, maybe drug seeking behavior. They don't know what to do. They just like natural go to is just put them out because we're not giving you an opioids, but there are things you can do them here where we can work with them in, in, in opiate use disorders are different from other use disorders. And I have several different ones. Most substance use disorders are a mental obsession. I do it when I'm sad. I do it when I'm mad. I do it when I'm happy to celebrate. I just, I do it when I don't like the way I feel, but there's no physical dependence. It's more mental, right? Which treatment works well for that.

Opioid use disorders are a horse of a different color. Because they not only have a mental obsession, but they have a physical meaning. I don't get it, I get sick, right? I throw up, I get clammy hands, I get, diarrhea. I get all these things happening to my body. And any person who doesn't even do any substances, if you get sick, you go to a doctor, he give you some medicine and you're going to take it.

If you see them because it's going to make you help you get better. It's the same thing with opioid use disorders and the services we provide here. They get sick, they come in, we give them just enough relief. To where psychological measures can be taken, because if I'm sitting in front of you and you're trying to give me cognitive behavior therapy, motivational interviewing, you're trying to do all that stuff and I'm sitting here and I'm about to throw up, I'm sick, my hands clammy, I'm aggravated, I'm irritated, I don't give a damn what you offering me, I'm finna leave, if I can give you something, To level you out just enough, you get just enough relief where you feel like you can sit in your own skin. Psychological measures like counseling peer support services are more effective.

Chris Langley: Most definitely. Most definitely. what are some of the challenges that you, face, providing your service in the community? Jeffery, have you, come across many challenges from external, Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: Stigma. I just keep it right there. It's stigma. It's,

Chris Langley: Yep.

Jeffery Harvey: don't think it's that people. you get a lot of older heads like me who've been around and got sober the old fashioned way, and I know some of them, they have good intentions and they want to help. we, seek to be of help. we don't pretend to know it all, but we seek to be a part of and not replace anything. and I do think some of those, support groups and stuff like, I think they can coincide. They're not mutually exclusive, but I you get egos involved and people start feeling why I didn't do it like that. And I'll be honest enough to say these services weren't available when I got sober because if they were, it probably would have made my transition a lot smoother. so I try to be involved in like the, the solution, not the problem. I don't talk a lot about problems. So we just want to be a part of helping. And in the South, I don't know, maybe it's like this other place, but I know here in the South is a lot of it is they don't understand it, right? They just feel like, Oh, they're abusing or they getting high on it.

And it's like anything else, are there people who probably abuse it? Yes. But the safeguard that we have against that is we monitor it. follow SAMHSA's guidelines for, for, take homes for narcotic medications. will come in and dose for an extended period of time daily for some medications, not as long as other medications. And that's simply so we can monitor it and make you make sure you're safe before you start taking these kinds of medications home. during that monitoring process, we're phasing people, from a different certain amount of days, we're phasing you up. And a part of phasing up is you have to be have negative your analysis, you have to, be going to your counseling sessions, both group and individual. If you have peer support or recovery support services, you have to be engaging in those. And those are things that are contributing to your mental well being while the medication is working on your physical well being. And by the time you start getting those medicines, it's less likely that you're abusing them.

So we have safeguards around it. here in the south, there still is a lot of stigma with that medication. I just really think it's because People don't understand and there's not a lot of Jeffers out here explaining it to them. so I take every opportunity. you messaged me and I was like, yeah, sure. do I want to be sitting here drinking a cup of coffee trying to get ready for my next meeting? Yeah. Is that the best thing for me to be doing? No. The best thing for me to be doing is sharing the message of hope. maybe educating some people who didn't know about these medications and some people who know about them and letting them know simple things like. You cannot overdose on buprenorphine. You can't like a lot of people don't know that a lot of people thought they just getting high. They don't really get, they don't really get high off the medication. First two times, maybe some little buzz, after that it levels off. I call it the wonder drug.

A lot of times with it. all of the drugs that we medication that we use are wonders, but with suboxone in particular, because it's very, prevalent. A lot of times, it levels off, And it has another drug in there that people really like and don't realize it's in there. It has Narcan in it, which means if you take the, if you take it, it's eight by twos or four by two.

if you take it, enough relief from opiates that you can focus. if you get a bright idea to go out and try to use only the Narcan kicks in your flusher receptors off and it keeps you in the precipitated withdrawals. So you won't let you, it's trying not to let you overdose. Like these medications are wonderful and I don't think a lot of people know what's in them.

So I think it's incumbent on people like me to inform the public,

Chris Langley: you're certainly doing that today. That's for sure, Jeffery. I totally agree with what you're saying about buprenorphine as well. in the UK, we had that as well. And compared to methadone, the success rate was so much higher for clients. Clients were almost relieved when you moved from methadone to, Suboxone.

Jeffery Harvey: especially with, what I call a pretty little peers, the, synthetics, you go to the pharmacy and pick up your Percocet and Lortel of this. But to be honest with illicit opiates, heroin, fentanyl, my experience has been that depending on frequency and duration, A lot of times Suboxone is not strong enough for that population.

And methadone is the most effective when it comes to illicit opiates like fentanyl and heroin. And now I don't even think they do heroin no more. Now I think they used to cut the with fentanyl now. Now I think they cut the fentanyl. I think they cut the put the heroin. It's the cutting agent there.

Most patients who come, I won't say most, but a lot of my patients, they don't even want heroin. They don't have to pretend no more. They just, they go buy fentanyl and this, what's so dangerous about it? They don't, it used to be, heroin and they cut it with fentanyl and they didn't know, but they just go buy fentanyl.

They know what it us.

It's deadly and it's killing a lot of people.

Chris Langley: It is. It really is that's leading on to my next question, actually, Jeffery. So how is your state coping with the crisis with fentanyl in the opioid crisis? What do you know? Obviously, the marvelous work that you're doing at your agency is fantastic. But how is the state generally are they running away from it?

Or are they trying to deal with this?

Jeffery Harvey: Will say they're not, running away from it. be honest. They, running me to it. So they have, me and they have other agencies, but I won't say me because it's not me. Jackson comprehensive treatment center, subsidiary of Acadia behavior, care. they use agencies like this and we're like, we're at the front line.

Like they have to on us. Because again, a lot of times they don't understand. They just know we got people falling dead left and right. They don't know what to do. And we have to be mindful not to just throw money at the problem. We have to look at our options, see what's most effective, and, target our money into those places that are working and, create mass appeal like podcasts and, different things to inform the public.

Okay. We have this issue. This is what we see what works best. And put media, things in place that like lead them they do with, lifestyle, lead them right to the trough so they can come here and save their lives. So we don't have people following this. So we have this place, Jackson Comprehensive Treatment Center. We have a lot of, providers here that can offer a lot of our community mental health agencies. M. A. T. Programs where you can go in and get prescribed your, your buprenorphine. The difference is we're a lot more swamped because we offer, we wanted a few places that for methadone maintenance. So we do buprenorphine and methadone, but like a lot of the community, all of the community mental health agencies, they can't offer their medication because there are certain regulation guidelines and things you have to do with a dispensary and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we're one of the only in Jackson.

There's another one, but we're one of the only in Jackson. So the more people had to perish. The more people willing to accept, Medicaid decision treatment, they say we had to have a lot of fatalities before people start buying in. But when you start having senators and congressmen and lawyers and attorneys and doctors and people's families died, this is the 1st substance use disorder where. let's be honest. We say certain things like the crack academic and stuff like that. We say, okay, this and then, the inner city that's in, the ghetto that's in the, but then opioid use disorder start popping up and then you start having people who were like these, your nieces, your nephews, your uncles, your daddy. Big in the elderly population because they were giving these people these medicine. And I won't get into that from the Sacklers, but yeah, we start prescribing this stuff to our grandparents and our uncles and daddies and people didn't know him by the time they realized what was happening. they had a full fledged addiction. so we got behind the eight ball on it, but now we have a lot of community mental health agencies, in the tri kind of area region eight region nine. Look, I don't take credit for all the work. I shot them out. They got great programs that they get people in and can put them on buprenorphine. but we're like the front line of defense. We, they're like the soldiers and we like the tanks who go right at the front of the line. Cause we, we get them from everywhere. And, a lot of times they, a lot of patients have realized that suboxone just, it's not, it works, but it's just not going to work for me because I'm doing this particular drug.

So they come find me, I'm pretty known in the community. They co find me wherever I'm at. They pass my number around like it's candy. so I don't even try to not answer the phone. I can't. I can't not answer the phone because it could be that one person who's reaching out for help. So I'm always up answering the phone all through the night, trying to get people engaged in service.

Chris Langley: Wow. one thing I did want to ask, obviously with the fentanyl crisis that's going on, Geoffrey, do you ever find any patients come to you and you do the drug test and it comes up positive fentanyl and they don't think they've taken fentanyl?

Jeffery Harvey: Oh, it happens all the time.

Chris Langley: Yeah?

Jeffery Harvey: there's this thing called perception of harm. And perception of harm is what I found is that it's going into your question. I keep it brief. I promise you. Perception of harm is this. I know fentanyl will has the potential to kill me. even if I come in, I said, I'm not going to do fentanyl. I'll just do, I come in here. I'll do my buprenorphine or I'll, take my methadone maintenance. But on the weekend, I'll try to do a little meth. And what was happening was a lot of these patients were coming in the clinic and they were getting a, the UAs done and they were still testing positive for methamphetamine and fentanyl.

And they were like, I didn't do any fentanyl. And I tell them that, it's a long time ago, drugs were what they say as bad as that was, crack was crack, Powder cocaine was powder cocaine. Marijuana is marijuana. Look, I don't have any. with marijuana. marijuana was marijuana, but now it's a figment of your imagination. not what you go buy one thing and you think it's there, but they're putting fentanyl and everything because it's very addictive and they don't want you to come back and just buy some weed. They want you to come back and buy their weed. Fun fact, again, had a friend work with the Mississippi Bureau of Narcotics, won't call his name, called me one day said they had busted a large quantity of high grade marijuana.

What do you call it? I'm sitting up thinking, okay, big deal. Yeah. I'll be honest, when I start seeing dispenseries popping up on every corner, you can go to your doctor and get a prescription, that's not even something I'm concerned with,

with marijuana. I'm just being honest with you, but when he said it was, I was like, what he told me was he said, "Jeffery, when we tested it, it didn't come back positive for only THC. It can't be positive for fentanyl." And I was like, "Oh shit." And

this lot of weed. So

Chris Langley: yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: I don't think the cartel really cares. If you can overdose and die, I think they're more concerned with having a captivated consumer base, to speak.

So I put this on this weed, you'll come back. I don't want just his weed. I don't want just some weed. I want his weed. And they don't even understand why. so here at Jackson CTC, I step out and get, per rigs in Mississippi. we're not required to test for marijuana. I thought that was beautiful. the reason I say it, it is because this. In light of what I'm working, what I'm dealing people who own, like the last thing I'm worried about is, that, secondly, and most importantly, I want to be, see, I want to be politically correct. but I'll say this, I just didn't think it was fair that I have a job and I work, I come in and I receive services. But I have a paycheck and some money. go down the street to the doctor. He give me a medical marijuana card. And I can go to the dispensary and buy weed. Bring me the prescription, and it's prescribed by your doctor. You can still phase up. You can still But then I have somebody, same situation, but they don't have any resources. Can't get a medical marijuana card. And they're getting penalized. For, not having this car. So what it boiled down to for me was money. So that's why I said, when I started to see dispensaries popping up everywhere, I sat down and I talked to my, the state opioid response team with the state.

Everything is on the, that was based on my discretion. and I just, I don't think that's fair. To hold certain people accountable and certain people, not accountable because they can afford the car. if it was a state regulation, yes, that's just what it is. But in light of what I'm dealing with, the last thing I'm worried about is marijuana.

I'll just step out on him and say that my phone might blow up after this. I couldn't do the marijuana maintenance. I couldn't do, that wouldn't work for me because it would have led me back to something else. That's another point I make. Just because I got sober, the abstinence 12 step based way, right?

Just because I got sober and I didn't smoke marijuana or any of that, who in the hell am I to decide what's best for somebody else? That's my journey. That's their journey. And they should be able to take place in deciding what their recovery look like to them. Because they're more likely to work toward it if they feel a part of it. so know, the marijuana,

Chris Langley: That's very interesting you said that because I've done quite a few of these podcasts and many people have told me about the marijuana thing. And it's just, to me, just, it's just so shocking and unnecessary. Someone I spoke to on the podcast described dispensaries as harm reduction now because of what's going on with fentanyl.

And that to me was interesting.

Jeffery Harvey: I'm not going to jump out on a limb and say that, but I will say this. if I had a wish and somebody asked me about this, say, would you rather for them to be doing what they're doing to be smoking weed? I'd be like smoking weed. Cause then all of them be home, sleeping, eating, not going to jail, not breaking into houses,

not getting hurt, not trying to hurt somebody else to get, always just choose a list of two evils.

look, again, I'm not, please enter the extension. I'm not that you wish to intercom. I'm not follow, the, guru I'll say of that, but I'd say it is, it's a perception of harm.

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: A lot of them just look at it like, the reason I became okay with the entire marijuana thing, I just go ahead and say it. It's because of what I just described to you, Somebody, yeah, Jeff. But marijuana is still a drink. Yeah, it is. But if you going to do it. Just like I said about here, you come here, you see a doctor, you do it safely. If you go up the street and buy some marijuana from whoever, a lot of times they smoke in the marijuana with it. They didn't lace it with fin now. They don't know it gets sick here like it. I know if you go into a dispensary, that's regulated, like they, they have to like adhere to certain things, test this, or less, likely to get hurt just smoking some weed.

And if you go down the street and smoke some weed, it's what you just told me, ask me a minute ago, you go up street and buy some weed and it's 50 and you overdose and die. lot of times this is what's happening. You've seen young ladies, opioids among African American women. Scott rocketing because they're passing pills around, Oh, I'm cramping or, something, Oh girl, how you can have one of these, or let me have one of your pain.

yeah, we know the drill. You shouldn't be sharing medications. I'm just giving you some examples of how this takes place. And then they get one from their friend, but what they didn't know, their friend didn't get this from the farms. She got it from a friend who got it from a friend who got it from somebody who was pressing pills. She take. The pill, overdose, and dying have fentanyl in her system nearby. I didn't know she had a problem with drugs. She possibly didn't.

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: took one pill. She thought it was a Percocet, or Hydrocodone, or whatever it was. And her mind was saying, don't do this drug. This is a strong drug. But she didn't know. That's why I say it's a figment of your imagination. She thinks she took this, but it was really this. She's dead.

Chris Langley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: Two kids, single mother, and she had that stigma on her back of was a closet drug addict, but it's possibly she wasn't. So that's why I tell people, if you didn't go get it yourself from the dispensary, or if you didn't go get it yourself from the pharmacy, I always consider it, my rule of thumb is treat it like it got fentanyl, treat it like that, and you asking about the marijuana thing, it's, again, it's the list of two evils.

You get a card, you go to the dispensary, I know that don't have fentanyl on it. And that's your choice.

Chris Langley: That's right. That's right. That's, really interesting stuff. Thank you very much for explaining that to us. last couple of questions. I ask, all of my guests this because I get some really interesting and varied answers. You've already touched on this already, but can you tell me what your opinions of harm reduction and how it can play such a pivotal role in recovery?

Jeffery Harvey: So you, have these different forms of harm reduction. Like I don't know how it is up North and I won't pretend

I

because I only visited there, you have different forms of harm reduction where you have clean needles and stuff like, and then, you get the, proponents of it say, Oh, is like you permitting them to use or you come out with Narcan as a harm reduction.

I give Narcan out to every patient who do an admission with us for free. It's a part of our admission process. When you dose and do that, we give you two vows, and give it to who's around you the most, give it to, and most people will say, isn't that, enabling them? Like you just tell them to get high.

No, what I'm doing is trying to buy them another day to be alive. Because if I can, I tell people this all the time, they say, I'm in the business of keeping people alive because if I can keep you alive long enough, you, your decision making hopefully will change over time. But without these harm reduction measures like Narcan and things like that, did something and you died and the world forgot about you. Sad as that is, but you do something and somebody Narcan you and you make it. And then eventually you have those three kids back and you, had a job and a college degree or that trade or whatever you want to do with your life. And you have been flourishing. You have a husband or you have a wife, you have a home, you're paying taxes. You remembered, we, we, didn't enable you. What we did was keep you alive. We kept you alive and what God kept you alive, but he used us as instruments to do that. I take pride in it. I take pride in people who come in here who the world has gave up on them, but we don't give up on people here. They give up on us, but we give up on them. and so I love harm reduction. And another last fun fact, I was like those people when I did community support. I, I was a stunt support group person that's cross addicting And I'll tell you what changed my, thoughts about that. Young lady I know, very good friend of mine. used to come hang around us and, I tell the story and it still makes me tear up. she, used to come hang around us and she was sober for about 12 months. And we used to have all these little, I own ideology about, this was, when these medications first came to Mississippi.

Oh, it's cross addicting and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I tell people I'm not Moses. Don't itch what I say it's strong like it's a 10 commandment and this girl was hanging with us and she disappeared and I saw her about a year later and she was strung out and she said Jeff I have so I had and have so much respect for y'all she say but I heard the way y'all like really went on board with the medication I was taking and my eyes got this big she's yeah I was on buprenorphine for that year but she had a job in a car and she her skin was clear and her hair was she was thriving in life And our dumb ass opinions that we knew nothing about, just talking, had the potential to kill. And I spent the next years researching, finding out about these medications, like how to do it. And I learned so much that, I was given the opioid therapist position. And I changed my ideas about it based on that young lady. And I spent the next two years after that with her coming into treatment. Disappearing coming back. I found a get it back in treatment. Look, I used to go on crack houses and get people the drug dealers knew me they respected me. That's mr Jeff. He's just trying to help them and they'll send them off with me to go to treatment knowing full where they owe their money Like I don't run from nowhere.

Like I don't run from anywhere Please enter the extension that you wish to intercom followed. I don't run from anywhere I go anywhere where I need to go to help them in any way eventually story three months ago You Random phone call. It was that young lady. She came for four months in treatment where I used to be. She left. I was like, this ain't looking good. months ago, she came back. She say I'm picking up my 18 month chip. Can you give it to me? She said, I've been sober 18 months. said, I stayed sober year here, but I had to leave. I went over to Alabama and she's sober. She got a car. She's got a job, right?

She, chairs meetings. She, it, so, to anybody who feels like I have to draw a line in the sand, I said this, I got to just be there. I don't have the ignorance is bliss. I didn't have to stay there. Even though that happened, I use it like I did with everything else in my life to catapult me on to something great where. That was a defining moment for me to say was a wrong take. I had on it. I need to revisit it. And most importantly, I need to educate myself before I open my ignorant mouth about things. I don't know anything about because once I did that, you'd be able to tell you it's a guy. I say this and you can edit it out if you want to.

There's a guy in this, big, book, right? That we use in churches and he, persecuted Christians. He persecuted Christians. God changed his vision about it. first he took his but he changed his vision about it. And this guy became a weapon in my creator's arsenal. So I take that same ideology and say, he chooses the least of us. And now I was able to take that ignorance that I had and now use it in an arsenal for good to help keep people alive. You know what I'm saying? I don't have to stay ignorant what I'm saying. I can educate myself and I can do better.

Chris Langley: Wow. Thank you so much. That's that was incredible description of harm reduction. I love that, Jeffery. last question. Do you have a message for anyone listening to this podcast who is going through an addiction?

Jeffery Harvey: Don't give up.

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: Don't give up on yourself. You worth it. Your children worth it. Your family worth it. Your community worth it. In recovery, I have found when I was using, I was getting high and I know I didn't get raised to do any of this stuff, but when I was, I gave up everything one thing. But when I got sober, all I had to do. Was give up that one thing and I got everything that I thought was impossible to a little inner city kid like me became possible but my creator I talk a lot about him because Anything good that I do is more of a reflection of him than it is me because he told me ain't nothing good But him anyway so all of these things that I thought I would never be able to I dropped out of high school a Lot of people don't know that about me. I dropped out of high school You do other stuff through recovery. I was able to go back, get my GED. I went to the back to school, to the 13 ranked HBCU in the nation. And I graduated magna cum laude in my class. I went to graduate school and I graduated magna cum laude. I had the second highest GPA in my school and in my cohort of mental health counselors. And I say that because I dropped out of school and I convinced myself through my addiction that I was dumb, that I just couldn't hack it. No, I was lazy and I was, and I didn't prepare properly mentally I had my mind set on doing other stuff. But when I got sober and my mind cleared, I was like that little choo train.

I get an AO to be here. I think I can. I think I can. I think I can. I think I can. And before you know it, I was full fledged

Chris Langley: Yeah.

Jeffery Harvey: and I realized I'm not a dumb person. I am worthy. God does love me I can't be an asset to my community. I have something else to offer somebody else that can stop them from going through the pits of hell that I've been through. I've been shot, I've been stabbed, been overdosed. I've been in jail, not to prison. I went to county jail for 12 months with no bond. For my own errors, my no, I, was rightfully there, but that's the situation that God worked out for me through judge kid and drug courts and stuff like that. I have been given, I serve the God of not only first and second chance, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, eight, nine, ten chances. As long as I got breath in my body, I got a shot. So my message is don't give up on yourself. believe in you until you believe in yourself. I love you till you love yourself. And I got a team of people here with me that gonna love you till you love yourself too.

And the only thing that you owe us is that when you get it, You go give it to somebody else for free that's what I do. I had the first I had to get sober because I couldn't transmit something. I didn't have, I've been had a good heart, but I had to get sober and I had to go through what I had to go through.

So the message is of hope. You can re cover it. If you want to, you have to make a decision. You don't have to do dope again. If you don't want to, or if you want to, but you have to get with people that can help you do that. And that's what we do. Children haven't done drugs. If you got kids who you feel like you have alcohol, drug violence, prevention services here, we come out and talk to them, do stuff with them to try to stop them from jumping over that threshold.

Because had somebody to come talk to me and tell me the stuff, I maybe would have still did it, but I don't think it would have lasted as long because I would have saw what they were telling me was true. look, I'm just trying to be a service man. I'm living on borrowed time. The things I've done in my life, I probably should have been dead, God saw fit to spare me.

I'm living on borrowed time and I'm trying to, he gave me the gift of sobriety and what I do with it is my gift back to him.

Chris Langley: thank you so much for that. last question, Jeffery, can you tell our listeners how to best to contact you and to find your amazing service online?

Jeffery Harvey: I am Jeffery Harvey. My email address is jeffery.harvey@ctcprograms.com. My direct cell is 601-665-2475. I have one more number that I sent you that they can call and have a direct, inquiry set up so they won't have to talk to me and have me annoying them. where are we? Here we go.

That phone number is 844- 657-2335. And my name is Jeffery Harvey, the Clinic Director of Jackson Comprehensive Treatment center and the CEO of Natural Prevention, Mentorship, and Consultation.

Chris Langley: Geoffrey, what can I say? What can I say?

Jeffery Harvey: get too long with him.

I start talking about recovery, I could just

go, man because it's just, it's my life. It's, This is what I do. it has, I, thought I wanted a career where I can hit the clock and go home. And I had an opportunity to, sit down and like chill for a month.

I had a back surgery and I realized, man, running and gunning and helping people is just what I love to do. And I have to take care of myself. I love people, but I love me today too. But, it's this is the bright spot of my life, man. You get

Chris Langley: I could feel it.

Jeffery Harvey: this is the bright spot.

Chris Langley: I could certainly feel that. That's for sure. Geoffrey, it's been a real honour and a privilege to hear your story and about your career and about the wonderful work that you're doing in your state and within your community. thank you so much for joining me today. Really appreciate it.

Jeffery Harvey: me to represent the great state of Jackson, of Mississippi here in Jackson.

Chris Langley: Yeah, you've done that beautifully. Thank you so much, sir.

Jeffery Harvey: All right.

Do, do, do, do, do.