Ep41 Addiction Recovery Wasatch Family Unconditional Love

Ep41 Addiction Recovery Wasatch Family Unconditional Love

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley: Hi, welcome to Addiction Recovery Place podcast, the podcast champion addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host, Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest, Corey Markisich, the Executive Director of Wasatch Recovery in Sandy, Utah.

Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place podcast, Corey. It's so good to have you join us today.

Corey Markisich: Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited to do it.

Chris Langley: No, really excited to hear about the awesome service that you've got in your state. So just, just going to kick things off. So can you tell us about yourself and your journey to becoming the executive director of your recovery service?

Corey Markisich: Yeah, it's an interesting one. I actually went to school and graduated in, in business finance and had no intentions on, working in the treatment world and actually from, some of my Kind of stuff and getting into therapy and doing some things. I, thought, Hey, I want to get into the, and I did, I went back to school and got into it and became a counselor, an addiction counselor. And again, didn't think that would go anywhere. I was living these, this one track of being a counselor in the evening and having another professional life. And with my business background and, love for, addiction and treatment, it just kept putting me in different situations. I quickly found out that, a lot of people in the addiction world didn't have a lot of business background.

So it gave me opportunities and, I just started moving down the path and I was walking this line of a counselor and a business person and just helped open a few places. And it was, wild. And then all of a sudden I was, being asked to help, run a couple of places and open places.

I moved to Florida for a while and, then landed here. So I've been here now about 10 years.

Chris Langley: Goodness me. So what year was it that you went back to

Corey Markisich: So it

was 2006, I want to say. About 2006. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a minute.

Yeah.

Chris Langley: That's incredible. So it was obviously meant

Corey Markisich: Yeah,

yeah, you can say that.

Chris Langley: That's, amazing to hear. That's awesome. so obviously you're As the executive director, can you tell us about some of the services that you offer your clients and how your program works,

Corey Markisich: Yeah, so, we are. So we're in Salt Lake City, Utah. Sandy, Utah. It's a little suburb of Salt Lake City, Utah. and we have, all the continuum of care. So we have, we start with residential and we have two beautiful homes that are just right up against the mountains, like literally 10 minutes from some of the best ski resorts in the world. And, we have capacity for 32 people. And it's, male and female. We don't really have a male house or a female house. we have them, everyone in the same homes. And then we have, an outpatient that has a day treatment. And then we also have an intensive outpatient. And we have sober living. And, we're pretty unique because We were able to, so we built our sober living and our outpatient building from the ground up. So we all sat down and said, if we were able to create the best place that would work for everybody, let's do it. and and we did it. And so it's all like on the same campus.

So we have a building, which is our outpatient building, which has group rooms and individual rooms and like a rec area and everything. And then in the same parking lot, just behind it, has some townhomes. And we have capacity for 52 people that can live, there. And so they can, live in the townhome and literally walk across the parking lot and come to treatment.

And It's pretty neat. Yeah. And it's near, it's, our outpatient is more in the town area, like the downtown area. So it's near public transportation and jobs and different things. But our residential is about 15 minutes from there and it's more kind of up in the mountain area. So yeah, that's pretty neat though.

It's pretty cool.

Chris Langley: That sounds an amazing environment to be

Corey Markisich: Yeah, yeah,

it's good. We're lucky to have a really cool team and some people that, really wanted to do it that way. We started, obviously, with just a little place, an outpatient place, and then just kept saying, We gotta make this our own.

Chris Langley: Yeah, you mentioned about your team members. Can you tell us about some of your team? I've looked on your website. You've got some

Corey Markisich: Like, we have a really cool place here at Wasatch, It started, actually, with two brothers. that had really nothing to do with treatment. They were people that were in real estate and we're looking for something else to do. And during the housing crash, they were like, we gotta find something else to do.

This just might not sustain forever. And they had a lot of real estate experience, but not a lot of treatment experience and really just had a heart for kind of wanting to do this. And so they, started it and just started cherry picking different people. And I met them right when they started doing that, but I was actually just getting ready to move to Florida to actually open a treatment center. And so they got it going, got it off the ground. and, then I moved, I was out in, Florida for a while and came back and then came here to be their, director and and then I started kind of cherry picking people that I used to work with at different, treatment centers and and we've just created this place where people want to work, and we're all so different. Which is crazy. Like I don't really want clones of, I don't want the same therapists that are doing the same things, So we have people that specialize in EMDR, people that specialize in DBT and CBT and, everyone, and we just, we, some people that really are gung ho with 12 steps, some people that are really gung ho with rational recovery.

we don't just say, Hey, this is the box you need to be in. Like we let everyone do their thing. So it was pretty cool. Yeah. Pretty neat.

Chris Langley: Sounds a really neat place to work that you've got so much scope and, wide range of

services and therapies that you're offering your

Corey Markisich: Yeah, yeah.

Chris Langley: 12 step or

Corey Markisich: It's everything. It's whatever fits for the person,

we obviously have a curriculum that we will follow with our groups and things. But, what we always tell our clients is, Hey, you're not just going to do rational recovery. You're not just going to do 12 steps.

You're going to be exposed to a lot of stuff. But our main thing that we really tell everyone is when you come here, you're going to process and work the why and, that's different for everybody. someone might check into treatment and say, I just need to stop drinking. okay. But I always say anyone can stop, using their drug, it's staying stopped. And the reason that you're using that or pursuing that is because of some trauma or some pain or, whatever else is going on, some underlying stuff. And that's what we're treating here.

Chris Langley: Yeah, most definitely. It sounds incredible. It really does. you mentioned your sober living program, which

just sounded very impressive. So can you tell us how this works and what's the process for people

to

Corey Markisich: So,

so actually, so, so. most people start in our residential. You don't have to, people will actually can come to our sober living that hasn't even been to our programs, but most people will start with our residential and they're there 30 to 60 days, give or take, wherever they need to be.

And then at the end of that, when they're stepping down, most people have, coming into treatment have burned down their lives, and, they have, And if they haven't, they might not have a, even the place they're going back to might not be a good environment anyway. And so we tell them right from day one, Hey, there is this option for sober living when, you're done. And our culture here has been built where they just know that's the next step. And, I even just had somebody that graduated on Monday. He has a great family. He's a father. He has a wonderful job. But just the culture of being in treatment, he decided to do a month of sober living and, and honestly, he has a good home life, and he, has, responsibilities and some things that he could, get back to, but he needs that bridge. and and so, from day one, we're talking about it. Now, a lot of people, they don't have the funds for that. And, a lot of our people coming into our, treatment center are helping the other payments are through insurance. and commercial insurance doesn't pay for, living. It doesn't pay for sober living.

So it's something that needs to come, out of pocket. And we run it as a separate kind of entity. It's really like a rental property. And so, they have to pay for it. And a lot of them can't, And so we actually have a foundation that we've started that can help. They can apply for a scholarship. There's several others here in Utah that have started scholarship foundations just for sober living. And so we've linked up with them. There is, times where families will help pay. There's, religious, different opportunities where the religion will help pay. And, and, we have a stated fee that say, hey, this is what it is. And I'll be honest, I think there's probably, maybe. 20 percent that pay that fee. We're, we have large discounts for the scholarships and different things And yeah, we want them to come into Sober Living and yeah, it's a business But our main goal there is to break even because we're providing them a place to stay. They're still in treatment They're still getting help,

We didn't really go into it as this huge moneymaker. We had the luxury of the real estate backing of The knowledge. Yeah. When we built those, we, were able to do that in a way where, we're not upside down in that.

So we're, it's been It's been a blessing. Yeah.

Chris Langley: can imagine your success rates Pretty high. the services you're providing and the sober living as well, and the support

Corey Markisich: You know, our goal, we always tell people

we're trying to get you engaged in, Treatment for a year. Now that doesn't mean you're in residential for 365 days, you know What we're trying to do is get you from the day that you start and a year later You're still engaged with something and that might just mean you're still in sober living after a year, But if we can get somebody, you know engaged for a year I mean it is it's almost like Unexplainable how we can do it, Three to six months that's a hard time for somebody but if we can get them engaged with treatment for a year It's not like a guarantee, but they're doing well.

They're doing well. Yeah.

Chris Langley: Most definitely. Congratulations to you on that. That's very, impressive. you mentioned also, Corey, the, working with families and I'm a true

believer in offering support to those whose family members are going through addiction. So what does your work with families involve and offer?

Corey Markisich: We're a true believer that addiction is not just affecting the person. we all know that and everyone can say that, but it really is a family issue, and even if the family issue is just, maybe they only have one person living, that's still affecting that person, even if they're not living near them or out of state, it's a family issue. And yeah, so we were a firm believer in that, and we actually, we do several different things. We have a family night that we do every Tuesday night. And it's, not like a group, it's more set up like a, education or like a classroom style. And, and we encourage any family and friends of, the client that's in treatment to come.

And each one of our therapists takes a night. So it's like on a, I think we're up to a 16 week now rotation, where we have different counselors and everyone doing it. But everyone takes a night. And you get to just teach what you want. And sometimes it's communication. Sometimes just boundaries or whatever it is.

But our underlying thing that we're always trying to teach the families is, the, knowledge of unconditional love. Not, letting somebody off the hook and just saying, Okie doke, it's okay, you did this. But, being able to love somebody even though they're making horrible choices. And if we can start there. Then we can jump into other things. we have, we offer individual therapy, we offer couples counseling. We, it, I've been at several different treatment centers and, being here is cool because you're always seeing a husband or a wife or kids, walking through here.

Cause they'll have a meeting with the person that's in treatment and We're trying not to make it scary for them, a lot of people think, Oh, my husband's in treatment. And if I come in there, you're just going to rail on me and I'm going to get in trouble and we don't do that. We bring them into the whole system and love them like they need to be loved.

Chris Langley: It must be such a weight off family members

shoulders when they come to your treatment and they, realize the help that you're providing them as well.

Corey Markisich: They walk in the door and they're terrified, right? Because they're scared. And, but we're, as soon as they walk in the door, we're grabbing them and hugging them and hey, you're going to be okay. This is going to be okay. And we always, we have a saying here that, you if you're here for longer than 15 minutes, you're going to hear it is that you're part of the Wasatch family. and and when someone comes into treatment, you're part of the Wasatch family. we just are this kind of giant, huge family that, I sometimes we're maybe even like a dysfunctional family because we're pretty crazy too, but that's part of it, right? We're all just this big happy family.

Chris Langley: Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Wow. that's so that's, it's lovely to hear it really is. so if someone wants to come to your treatment center, so what's the referral process for people wanting

Corey Markisich: we have, we

actually have, believe it or not, of all the people in treatment, like I said, we have 32 beds, we have, say I think about 80 or so clients between our, day treatment and outpatient and our intensive outpatient right now. With all that going on, we actually have two people, two people that run all of our admissions and they're incredible. One's name's Ryan Decker and the other one is, Christian Smith and, they take all the calls, every call. we have our phone number. And it's the phone number that's on our website, and the phone number that's everywhere. And every single call that rings, one of those guys take it. And they answer it, whether it's the middle of the night, or a Saturday, or a holiday, or whatever.

And they instantly just start, building rapport. Because it's, someone's calling because it's an emergency. And it's not always the client, right? It's a family member. or a boss or a son or whatever. And they instantly are just, building a rapport and sometimes that rapport might take six months for that person to get into treatment.

Sometimes that person might come in a week, but everything goes through these two people and, they're, amazing both in recovery. So they get it and actually Ryan is a graduate of our program about 10 years ago. And so not only is he, gets it, but he's lived the Wasatch way. And so it's pretty cool.

Yeah. That's a pretty neat thing.

Chris Langley: So

Corey Markisich: 24 hours a day. Yep. 24 hours a day.

Chris Langley: yeah. Wow. That's, amazing. I'm just going to move on a little bit, to just to ask, because I've heard many incidents on this podcast of clients testing positive when they first entered treatment for fentanyl and they didn't think they were using fentanyl.

I think we spoke about this when we first met, but has this been a problem for some of your clients who are entering the program who think they may be using one drug and then realize they've put their lives at such an even bigger risk of having fentanyl within

Corey Markisich: Absolutely. I mean, it's become such That's become such a problem that we've added it to our drug testing separately. so so when people come into treatment we always have to do an initial drug test to see what they've been using and see what's there. Even if they're coming from detox, we just need, that's part of our first protocol to see what's going on. and in the beginning

Corey Markisich: I'd say it's probably been about two years now or so, but we didn't initially test for fentanyl. We could, but it wasn't on our first tests, And so we, we added that because, not only because we started hearing, because people were using fentanyl, but that it was being mixed with other things.

And me being just curious, I wanted to see how many people were really testing positive that didn't know, I was blown away. it was rare. It's rare right now that someone comes in and, tests, they, report, this just happened two weeks ago. Uh, a person came in, he reports that, he needed treatment.

He's only using methamphetamines. Denies, anything, any other drugs. Smoked a little bit of marijuana here and there, but, main thing was methamphetamines. Had been clean for a few months and had relapsed. And so comes in and we, drug tested and he actually reported, Hey, that meth out there is just not like what it was.

And in my head, I'm thinking, "I bet I bet there was fentanyl in there." And I even told him that, and I said, we'll see what your UA comes back as. And yeah, it came back. There was, fentanyl in it. And, I've seen that. Like I said, most people that come in now, even in the marijuana, people are coming positive for fentanyl with smoking cannabis.

it's amazing. Yeah.

Chris Langley: That's, just an incredible thing to hear. And I've spoken to many people on this podcast and you're certainly not the first person to mention this. It's something I'm personally interested in kind of tracking because it just seems ridiculous. It just, that people are just using what they think

is of a, say cocaine or something and then they've, really put their lives at risk

Corey Markisich: It also has caused problems for detox because, you people, we, we have these different protocols for different, substances. That can help. And whether they're using heroin or whatever else, and, this fentanyl seems to, and, even the fentanyl's being mixed with other stuff, but it, seems to have a longer lasting effect.

And they might come in to us and, with, opioids we can, we, our doctor's pretty good. she's run a detox and so she can help get some people stepped down, pretty good. We're having to send people to the hospital because even after, a few days of, detoxing here with the assistance of a doctor, they, they need something else.

And, there's, it's amazing because it's not just, you really can't manage the detox anymore. Like it has to be in the hospital. And, it's, scary, I mean they're adding all kinds of stuff that who knows what's going on now. But it's. Yeah, it's not just dangerous for them while they're using but even coming off of it because and they don't even know so they're not Saying hey, I was using fentanyl like you wouldn't know unless you were testing for it Yeah, yeah

Chris Langley: isn't it, of drug addiction treatment. It's just the risk compared to, say, even 10, 20 years ago. It's just so much bigger.

Corey Markisich: For a long time heroin just overtook Utah, I mean we went through the opioid thing Just like everyone else and pills and everything else and then heroin just exploded out here It was cheaper version, right?

Everyone was using it And, that was, people were overdosing, people were passing away, it was scary, and, but now it, this sounds bad, but, I, liked that way better than I liked the fentanyl. I, we knew what to do, we were doing well with that, it was easier managed, and, odd thing about this is, with people that were using heroin, it was almost not that this is right, but there were, it was like people were taught how to use heroin by people that had been using heroin for a while, and it was this weird kind of passed down type thing where they even had people helping watch people.

it was not, again, not that it was right, but there was this hierarchy of. How it was working. You had the grandfather heroin addicts that were watching out for the younger guys with that. And all that's not working, they are just dying so fast that no one's watching out for anybody. even the Narcan isn't working as good because it's so much stronger. It's, a weird world right now. Yeah.

Chris Langley: most definitely. So, how is Utah dealing with the fentanyl crisis?

Corey Markisich: Absolutely. Oddly

enough today it's kind of funny are very first. So our governor. We have a good governor. he's, really cares about treatment. he's done a lot for mental health. he's done a lot of things and he actually just organized a fentanyl, um, strike force and their first meetings actually today of all time, which was crazy. and what they're trying to do really is one, just gathering a whole bunch of people in the community, providers, law enforcement, people in recovery. And getting them in the same room and saying, what do we got to do? And, already, there's been things done where, you there's plenty of places to get Narcan. I mean, there's, you can get Narcan, anywhere, which has been great because the prescription has gone away. you can go in and, just buy it now. You can, in Salt Lake, they actually have different places that there's a place. nonprofit that's been started by a doctor that she had a brother that passed away and she started a foundation that just builds kits and, gives them out for free. She gives them, and we're talking like not just a few, like this is a huge thing and not just to, like providers, but they actually go out on the streets and pass them out and get them in the hands of people that are using. And it's, good. But I think we've got a long fight though. this isn't something that's going to go away.

And it's so cheap. people are getting these pills that are less than a dollar. And, you I mean something, I remember when heroin, you it was like 10 bucks for a, and I thought that was cheap, And people are, I'm like, wow, people are only getting these for 10.

This is crazy. And now they can get these pills for literally cents. And, to me as, someone that understands business, I don't know why, how they're making money on it. Because if they're, it just doesn't make sense. Like to me, it's this thing where it's just been put out just to, it's a bad thing.

Cause there's no way that they're making that much money on these pills when they're. Yeah.

Chris Langley: a couple of cents

Corey Markisich: you know,

Chris Langley: or, 50.

Corey Markisich: the,

Corey Markisich: We hear because people come into treatment,

You get to hear all the crazy stuff that's going on out there

And yeah, it was a dollar. Now it's down into the cents. If you buy it and they're buying thousands of them, and yeah, it's, an interesting time to be doing this.

Chris Langley: It is. It is. thankfully, there's yours and other agencies around the country that are dealing with this. And by the sounds of it, your governor isn't running away from this issue either, which is

Corey Markisich: he's, he's,

he's

Corey Markisich: He's done well. We have a good treatment world out here in Utah too. there's a lot of treatment centers, but technically we're in competition because we're all in the same, space, but we all get along pretty well and we work together and, we know, if I know that, something that, that, We're not doing well with that.

Someone might need something like for, example, someone with a severe eating disorder, that's not something that, that, our place specializes in. And it's not fair to keep a client here if they need that help. And I know three places I can call and say, Hey, I've been treating this person. We need them to do this.

I'm not like fearful of losing a client, like we're all in the same team of helping and Utah is a unique place in that like it is a very these monthly meetings where we all get together We're all friends. We're all it's we're all pretty close. yeah just as now my phone just popped up in a little corner someone calling from another treatment center That's one of my friends that you know when I lived in Florida, that wasn't the case.

You didn't work with anyone else It was crazy

Chris Langley: Yeah. Okay.

Corey Markisich: Yeah.

You just be you and focus on be you and you focus on you.

Chris Langley: Yeah, sure, Would you say that you've seen a shift in the community attitude towards drug use and treatment, especially given the enormous help that services Yeah, you know, I,

Corey Markisich: I've worked in this for a little while, and, I live out in Utah and we're in a pretty conservative state, pretty religious state and, there's been a stigma and I'd say there still is, but it's getting better, it's that, okay, addiction doesn't affect me.

It's the neighbor down the road. Or, something we see on TV or it's somebody I knew, whatever, but that's not the case anymore. it's, if, it isn't affected you directly, whether yourself or a family member or a coworker, then you're lying, And so I think that has helped help that, it, doesn't discriminate. it, doesn't, it's been in my family. It's been in, in my friends families. and so I think that has helped, right? Because a lot of these where people are used to be able to be like, Oh, that doesn't happen to me. It does. It happens whether you're religious, whether you're successful or whether you're homeless, like it, it happens.

And it doesn't mean that you are a horrible person. It means that you need some help.

Chris Langley: That's right.

Corey Markisich: I do think it's getting better. seen it get better. there was I went to a the other day, a big foundation, one of those fundraiser big dinners that you go to and everyone Doesn't really want to be there, but you have to go, right? You know how those go.

And, this guy,

it was really neat. He got up there and he was talking about how started a sober living facility years and years ago. This was, a very long time ago. he was talking about how, when he started it, the. The neighbors and all these people were really upset, which understandably, it was in the middle of a neighborhood and there was, it was, can argue both and about it, but he ended up closing it. Moving on. Years later, he actually got contacted by one of those neighbors that apologized for what was going on because he had gone through a horrible addiction with his son. Son was now. Clean and doing well and but he basically said, Hey, I'm sorry, I, was living in fear of, I didn't want that in my backyard, not knowing that it was in my home and, I thought that was a good example of, sometimes we, do things cause it's scary, right?

We don't, we're acting out of emotion, but addiction and mental health, like here, it's affecting all of us. And it's something that we all just need to deal with. And it's, unfortunately, like with fentanyl and other things, it's not going away.

Chris Langley: no, it's, nice to hear that, attitudes are changing towards the right direction. that's, it's, you're not quite there yet, It's better. It's It's got a while,

Corey Markisich: but it's better.

Yeah, better. It's better. you also mentioned to me when we first met that. about the practice of body brokering, which I've spoken about on a podcast with one other person who was in, California. and you, told me that you've had, you've been a firsthand witness of I practice when you previously worked somewhere else. Yeah. So for people listening, would you be able to tell us about your experience, obviously not saying about names or anything, what you experienced when you saw this practice and how widespread is it?

Chris Langley: It just sounded just. I've never heard of this before. It was shocking.

Corey Markisich: I, briefly told you, so I worked for a place here in Utah, and we moved out to, we opened a facility in Florida. And this was, about 2000, Maybe 12, 10 around there, somewhere around there. And, so I moved out there, and we opened this great facility, built it from the ground up, doing, really, good things out there. and, and, one, it was different, because, like I said, here in Utah, we're all pretty close, and it was, It was very tight, close knit, and I was trying to do that out there. People were just like, who is this crazy guy that wants to be friends with us? Cause I'm like, this is how we do this, .

and I heard rumors because I wasn't really in that community. I wasn't from there. I was integrated into it. But I had heard rumors of that happening, of people, being paid to go to treatment or people finding people with good insurance and basically selling them, right?

You're like, hey, I'll give you 20 bucks for this guy And I'm like almost kind of naive thinking. Yeah, that doesn't happen. like it probably happened a couple times, but whatever and until I actually Had it happen to me. I had a client that came in. He had checked into treatment and he came to me literally like with no like shame or anything.

He just came and said, so when do I get paid? And I was like, what do you mean? I was I thought he was joking with me, like whatever, and as we dug into it, no, like he, he thought he was being paid to be here. And. And what had happened is actually a misunderstanding. He was being paid to go to treatment, but he ended up going to us instead of this other place. While he was in detox, he had, been sent somewhere else. Anyhow, so got to know this kid really well and he, just laid it out for me, and he had, he was from New York. He had went down to treatment in and it got whole wrapped up in that whole game. And Was making a living out of it. it, was unfortunate because, he had kinda learned, one, he had learned to make money out it, and also prolonged. Like he, he wasn't getting clean, he wasn't getting the help he needed. And unfortunately that kid actually ended up passing away. I moved back to Utah and, he'd would go in and out of sobriety and ended up overdosing and passing away, but it was wild, it was people, like I said, go into, paying for people like literally in, in detoxes, they would go into detox as a patient and then, find people that were there and say, Hey, I'm going to X treatment center and if you come with me, it's going to be fun, and I'll give you, you'll get 200 bucks. And then, it just trickled down from there. and I had moved back. I'd been in Utah when all this kind of now there's movies of it. And there's, all these documentaries happening. and, unfortunately, it wasn't just there. it happened in, in other states.

It happens here in Utah still. our admissions person I was just telling you about, he told me how he got a call Just a few months ago about somebody that needed treatment. It was a person trying to find, which doesn't, which isn't rare, right? a lot of times someone else is facilitating someone to get to treatment, but this person wasn't like a family member or a friend. And so he backed off and, the guy got mad at him and said, I've been working on this and who's going to pay me for all this? We don't pay for referrals. There's, and, to me, that's crazy that somebody is so blatantly no shame, like upset with the person on the phone that you wasted my time, which means there's people that are paying for it, right?

And we, we've passed laws here in Utah against body brokery. you can't. If there's anything, any monetary means that's tied back to a client, then that, that's body brokering. even if it's, obviously exchange for money, but even if it's gifts, or even if it's, or whatever. there, there's plenty of things that fall under it.

And, I know that it has curbed it. But unfortunately, I know it's still out there. There.

Chris Langley: So Utah actually did bring in a state law about trying to address this. That's, awesome to hear because it's, human trafficking.

Corey Markisich: It falls under. human laws.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's vulnerable people.

It's people, and sometimes they don't even know. that's what's crazy. Is they're Some people are actually trying to get help. But they're, because they have X insurance, they're being bid to different places. hey, I've got this great insurance plan, who will give you the most for it? And that's BS, because that is, it's just so wrong. And like I said, the client doesn't even know.

They're just being treated as a commodity it's a

Yeah, it's awful.

Chris Langley: That's just, it must be a real shock for clients when they actually, or if they ever do

Corey Markisich: Yeah. And, you know, it, it's to the point with

It's to the point with us where if there's not a tie of, a close tie, like a family member, a co-worker, a friend, or something like that, if it's just some random person that's trying to say, hey, this person needs treatment, we, shy away from it. We just say, hey, if we can feel that something's not right there, we instantly just give them another referral and say, hey, call someone else.

Chris Langley: Yeah, Excellent. thank you for explaining that to us. That's,

it's, just sad. It's just, it's just really tragic that someone who's trying to get into treatment

then

Corey Markisich: Yeah.

Chris Langley: that risk as well. It's just, thank you very much for that.

You mentioned the word stigma earlier, which is sadly a word that comes up in all my podcasts and is

now a regular question I ask here. But why do you think in this day and age that stigma can play such a big role in people not looking to get help for their

Corey Markisich: Well, again, I think it's because of, this negative thing that addiction means you're bad. And, addiction has, even the word, people even gone away from, which I think is good at sometimes and bad at sometimes. But we've gone away from saying the word addiction, because it just, it's instantly this negative thing. And, And, yeah, there's, a lot of hurt in addiction. There's a lot of pain addiction. There's bad things that happen in addiction, but that is not the person, and that's what we try to do here is, separate that, You do horrible things when you're addicted to a substance.

You do things that you would not do when you are not using that substance. And that is not who you truly are. And of course addiction gets that rap, right? Because, even, police officers are a good example. Because what happens is they are always dealing with the person that is in the worst part of their addiction, right?

They're arresting them. They're seeing them commit crimes. They're crashing cars. they're, doing bad things. So, so police officers view of addiction is horrible, right? they don't see people recover. They don't see people that are getting well. They see people at their worst and, when a police officer, and yes, police officers have addictions. When a police officer needs to get treatment. It's really hard for that person because of that stigma of, you know what, I can see all these horrible things and, or their families, and so I try to do my best wherever I'm at, whether I'm at work or wherever to, get rid of that because you don't know what's going on in someone's life.

And, if they are, doing bad things and they're doing things, That's not who they are. That's the addiction. that's, this, when you remove that, what's cool with working in treatment is you meet somebody at their worst. They come into treatment and their lives are shattered, right? And, for the next months, you get to see this beautiful person. You know that and you hear all the horrible stories and you're reminded by the stories of their family members But they're like, he did this But you don't get to know them like that and I've never met I've worked in treatment a long time and I've treated a lot of people and to this day I can say I have never met a horrible person I've met people that have done horrible things, for real. But that person is not their addiction. It's just not.

Chris Langley: That's right. Yeah. thank you very much for that, Corey. That was, wonderful. you're also a member of NADAC, which, I wanted to ask you, can you tell us about, why you joined this organization and what you most

Corey Markisich: Well,

yeah, so it, uh, The reason I'm part of it is I'm actually the representative. So I'm the president of our agency, our association here in Utah. And so I'm the rep for the national part of 4 4 8 VAC. So I've been a part of it since I, once I got my license. So I, when I went to school, and I was telling you, earlier, and I became a counselor. And to do that, you take the test through them, that's how, where everything goes through. And so I've been involved on and off with them for that long, And, they And then now currently I'm, the president here in Utah. And yeah, they're great. it's a, it's an agency that, you know, we do our local stuff here in Utah where we're trying to, pass laws or advocate and do advocacy and represent. And, and, you on a national level, that's what they're doing. And they've got some great people in there, they've got people. I love treatment and I love working in it, but they've got some people in there that I'm like, we'll be on these meetings sometimes. And I'm like, man, I gotta step it up.

These people are, they're in it, man. And they, work their butts off and they're doing stuff on the national level that is, most people don't even know, and I'm pretty involved, but some of the stuff I hear, I'm like, you're doing that? Wow. and, that's just that piece.

the representation of it, the CEUs, the stuff that they do for everybody, it's, a good place. They're, doing good stuff over there.

Chris Langley: Most definitely. So if someone is listening to this podcast in, in Utah, how can someone, join

Corey Markisich: so I'm actually, what we're called here is the Association of Utah Substance Abuse Providers. That's us. And, they can go to that website and hop on. It's just that. org. and go on and, pay the dues. Anyone that actually, takes the test for licensing for the substance abuse counselor, then they actually, that's, they, register and then they're part of it. And then obviously just yearly it kind of renews. And so, that's where most of our membership comes from. we do some outreach at different things and, the universities and, out here in Utah, The University of Utah used to be the only place that had a, substance abuse counselor, course, to, become licensed. Over the years, that, that's expanded. we have, I think at every university now. And if you want to do that, it's, they have it, like I said, every university, you can jump in and do it. And it was hard when it was just the University of Utah. It was very slim to get in. But now, it's everyone.

So anyone that registers for the test, that's usually where most of the memberships come from. Yeah.

Chris Langley: that there's not just one college now that's offering the training and the qualifications. It just shows how the whole industry is just growing and accepting that this is

Corey Markisich: when I went,

I was up

I was up at the University of Utah. I went, and it was really neat, and it was fun. And, yeah. cool now that there's so many options. University of Utah is one of the smaller ones now that are doing it because, they can only have so many classes they can do. And now they've got all these other places that you can go and do it. And, some people want to argue all that dilutes the license. No, there, there's so much out there that needs it. more the merrier, I, want as many people as we can to get into. This field because we need it.

I'm a director and so I'm over hiring and doing things right, and, right now we're, staffed well, but for the past three years I've been understaffed and I've been trying to find people and we just have a, shortage of people in our mental health, are in the profession. Plenty of people that, that. Are pursuing it, but we've had this gap and Covid really affected that. 'cause a lot of people drew back started private practices and went on telehealth and, drew back from that. And now it's, coming back to, but, we need more people in the mental health field and, not just, the substance abuse counselor a, an. Very important part because we have our mental health counselors, we have peer supports, we have all these different things. And the mental health, the substance abuse counselor is a hybrid of all of them. And, a lot of people that are in, the become counselors are also in recovery themselves. that rapport and that experience is needed.

I don't think you need to in recovery to be a counselor or be a therapist. Okay. But I believe that some people need that, they, they feel very comfortable when they know that this person has been through it. Is it a requirement? No. But I think that we have to have that in this profession, it's, needed.

Chris Langley: Most definitely, one of the last questions I'm going to ask you, Corey, is, I'll score my guess this because I get such a wide range of interesting answers, but can you tell me your opinion of harm reduction, how it can play such a big role

Corey Markisich: Well, when I first into this field, when I was taught about harm reduction, my attitude was what in the world? Why would I? And my inner, my first experience was with like a needle exchange when I learned about this. I was like, what a dumb idea. Like you're giving people needles? Like I was like, this is absurd, And, but now you ask me. And I have a completely different attitude on it. And it's because it's, and it's why it's there. we're trying to keep people alive. We're trying to sustain their lives and hopefully, they can get some help or they can continue to work or whatever it is. whether it be needle exchange, whether it be, different, medications. even. using less or giving people places to use, it can be a hot topic and it can be, for some people pushy, but I, believe if there is any way that we can preserve a life, we do it. And that might be something that, that morally for you I think a lot of people that struggle with it are also.

I've had a lot of people that have been in recovery themselves and follow the abstinence model. At least in our field. Because they are I'm not going to use anything. I'm not going to drink caffeine. I won't do this. I won't do that. Which works for them. I get that. That has helped them. But that doesn't work for everybody. I've even, it's funny how I look back even on my career, how my views of things have changed, whether it be needle exchanges or even suboxone or methadone or different things that, I used to a real kind of hard time with, suboxone, and buprenorphine thinking that, Hey, we're just giving these guys something else to use and it's a crutch and this and that.

for some people, yeah, it is, but for some people it gives them their life back. and if that what what needs to be done, then that's what we're going to do, And, so I believe in it. You don't have to always agree with everything. this is something I teach here when I was telling you about unconditional love. You don't have to always agree with what your loved one's doing. They might be using drugs, they might be doing things are totally against your values, but that doesn't mean you can't love them. and you don't have to agree with what they're doing. You I mean that even our whole world right now, we've just went through an election and we've got views on both sides, right? And, it's, become this, my team is better than your team, whatever team you're on, right? And, and okay, whatever, but we, just because I don't agree with this, or I do agree with that. We still need to be cordial and I can still love you and care for you. Just because, I love the Miami Dolphins. I'm a Miami Dolphins fan. They suck. They're horrible. And some people just think they're the worst team ever. But I can still like you if you hate the Miami Dolphins. That's just the way that it is.

Chris Langley: There we go. There we go. That's, perfectly perfect. That really is. I love it. I love it. It's fantastic. Do you have a message for anyone listening to this podcast who is going through an addiction, Corey?

Corey Markisich: Yeah, I always like to, I'm not in my office. I'm at our outpatient building in my office down here, but my, office is actually at our residential facility. And I have a, a big painting thing on my wall that says to never lose hope. And, that's, my kind of mantra for everything is to not lose hope, whether you're the person going through it or you're the loved one watching someone go through it. You can't lose hope, and if you don't have hope, then why, like, why keep going? You gotta have some hope. And, and, some people get upset with me because we'll allow someone that's relapsed, maybe. Three or four times, that come back to our treatment center and some people are like, but you shouldn't do that.

And I'm like, you know what? Why? you can't lose hope. I know a guy that is a current owner of a treatment center. Went to treatment over 20 times and, in and out of jail. Just did, had a horrible life, right? and finally got it. And. I trust this guy with my life, he's a wonderful person and if his family lost hope and I'll tell you they were there.

it wasn't like everything was easy, they, you can't lose hope. And yeah, I think that anyone that's either going through it or has a loved one going through it, don't lose hope. There's always hope.

Chris Langley: That's beautiful. Thank you. Last, question. Can you tell our listeners how to best contact you

Corey Markisich: Yeah, so our website is just wasatchrecovery.com and that gets to, to our, landing page of everything. You can see all of our services and all of my staff's beautiful faces. And then our, phone number that reaches those two individuals I was telling you about earlier. And, honestly they, they answer the phone that, that's, that is like their, thing.

You could call them right this moment and maybe one of them will answer the phone. And that number is 801 901 0024. And that number is, it's everywhere, And we've even had times where people want our, different marketing consultants. hey, we want to do this and we'll have a different number and we'll pipe through this.

And we're like, no, that number is, our number. It's been the number since day one. people know that when they go to jail, they have that memorized. People when they're homeless, we've had people that even joke about it where they've saved it in their phone for their friends and that is it.

And it doesn't go through a call tree. It doesn't go through anything. It literally rings to two phone numbers it's, to either Christian or Decker and those guys answer it and they're, on it. So if anyone needs help or they're even, looking for help because sometimes it, it takes a while

need to, you figure some things out, give them a call, give them a call. And people, if they want to contact me, feel free to, to shoot me an email. My email is Corey, C O R E Y at wasatchrecovery. com. I'm happy to, I, tend to get in trouble a whole lot because I'm always. volunteering for things and doing things, and my time gets But I, have a problem saying no when it comes to helping out with treatment and different things, so if there's things that people need help with or they're wanting, yeah, just hit me up.

I'm happy to help.

Chris Langley: Corey, I've got to say it's been a real privilege and an honor to speak to you today and to find out about your amazing career and the wonderful service that you provide in your state. And I can't thank you enough for

Corey Markisich: Yeah, Thank you I, I, I appreciate that. It's, It's, been an honor. I actually, when, we spoke earlier, you a week or so ago, and you told me what you're doing, I love people like you. Actually, I got off our phone call from before, and I told Ryan, our admissions guy, I just got off the coolest phone call with this guy that is just in the middle of the United States, just making a difference, man, from his little spot. thank you. Thank you for what you're doing.

Chris Langley: No, I really appreciate it.

Corey Markisich: Okay, talk to you soon. Thank you

Chris Langley: Take

Do, do, do, do, do.