Ep38 Recovery Treatment More Knowledge Less Stigma

Ep38 Recovery Treatment | More knowledge. Less stigma.

[00:00:00] Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley: Hi, welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host Chris Langley I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest Jessica Swan. Jessica is the Executive Director of Recovery Consulting in Williamsburg, Virginia and President elect of the Virginia Association of Addiction Professionals.

Jessica has extensive experience in clinical addiction counseling, research, development, training, evaluation, reporting for legal professionals, nonprofits, government agencies, and communities across the nation. She writes addiction recovery curriculum for treatment programs, offers counseling for individuals and families with substance use disorders, and provides addiction recovery counseling for organizations.

Jessica also specializes in helping high level professionals and their families, including professional athletes, doctors, judges, lawyers, and pilots, and has extensive experience working in the justice system and its intersection with mental health and substance [00:01:00] use. Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, Jessica.

It's so good to have you with us today.

Jessica Swan: Thank you so much. Glad to be here with you. Thanks for asking me to come in.

Chris Langley: Really excited.

I've just given an extensive introduction there, but I'd love you to tell us about yourself and your career so far. It's very exciting.

Jessica Swan: Yeah, thank you you just never know what's going to happen in life, right? I've been doing this work about 17 years. When things started out, I was working in administration, for an alcohol counseling agency that did, legal, people who were in trouble with the law and needed to do requirements for counseling and breathalyzers and urinalysis and things like that. That's how I got involved in the work. Then I went and got more education and, became an addictions counselor. This was out in Colorado, and I worked in residential treatment for about [00:02:00] five years. Then, I have on and off throughout my career, and I still do some work with residential programs, but in 2012, I started Addiction Recovery Consulting, and then in 2022, our board voted to drop off the word, "addiction." So we're called Recovery Consulting now. That was really about leading with recovery instead of leading with addiction. So that's what started me off in the field.

Over the years, after founding the nonprofit, we really accelerated the work in kind of three tiers of work of research, training and education and then counseling work. I have been forever interested in those intersections between behavioral health and the justice system in the United States.

A lot of my work has centered around that particular area, but recently we've expanded out to [00:03:00] training more clinical, staff and people in our field, other counseling, folks and things like that. So all over the country, doing all kinds of stuff.

Chris Langley: Wow. That sounds quite incredible. So you've done this over the past, was it 17 years you've been doing this for? Goodness me. Congratulations on everything you've achieved, and I can't wait to hear more about this. Can you tell us about your practice and what services you provide, please?

Jessica Swan: Yeah. So as I mentioned, we have these three prongs of work that we do. We are a nonprofit, so we do fundraising in order to support our work. We do counseling services, individual and family support for helping their loved ones get into treatment, family support for helping their family find recovery, that kind of thing.

So that's like the counseling service area. We also do a component of research [00:04:00] that involves things like, government or facilities who want to have some sort of review, of outcomes. We've done an outcomes program, for the National Association of Addiction Treatment Providers.

We've facilitated that for a few years, and that became the launching pad for what they have now is the Foundation of Recovery Science and Education. So things like that where we're doing sort of outcomes related or evaluation research work. The other part of this is training and education, which has been a big focus for me.

I'm the Executive Director, so I tend to be the person that winds up doing most of the teaching and training work. That's my favorite area. I get to decide to do that. That's, been a real gift for me is to be able to travel and teach folks across the country in different types of [00:05:00] sectors about education, about addiction, how to help people in the workplace, how to help people in the legal profession in particular, where we see a lot of addiction issues pop up for people in that profession because of the stress and trauma and personality types in that field. Anyway, so I just have kind of a real passion for that part of our work.

Chris Langley: I absolutely love it. So you've clearly got a really experienced team behind you, Jessica. So can you tell us about some of your team members that you work with?

Jessica Swan: We've been small nonprofit for a long time. It was just a party of one with a board of directors. It's not too different now. It's still pretty small. But we do have, I'm a clinical supervisor, and so I have supervisees. I have mentees, and we have an active board of directors that helps us to achieve everything we need to achieve.

So we get the counseling staff, and then we have [00:06:00] a support staff for research and education work. We use platforms and contracting to do a lot of the scheduling, and the billing and all of those types of things. So we resource all of that stuff.

Chris Langley: Oh, wow.

You're also President elect of the Virginia Association of Addiction Professionals. Can you tell me about this position and how you work in your state and how people can join the organization?

Jessica Swan: Let's see my position, it's like being vice president, so in March of 2025, I will hopefully be elected as the president and take over David Simenko, who is our president, and he stepped in for somebody who had to stop their term short. So he's been leading us for a while, for a few several years now. I'll be taking over his position. He has been very active in our [00:07:00] board for many years, so I have big shoes to fill there. I am excited about taking on the role. I have been on the board since, gosh, I think 2020 maybe 2021 is when I finally got, officially elected onto the board.

But, my role with them has been to build membership as membership chair. I'm the events chair. So really building out our events for our members. Helping to build our community partnerships with other agencies and organizations around the state. I really enjoy, it's a good intersection for me in the work that I do in my own nonprofit, to do this type of work with an association where we're trying to build professionalism, get people engaged in, in the state in getting excited about being a professional, right? I have a passion for that kind of thing. I think it's really [00:08:00] important. People join through being a part of NAADAC, which is the National Association for Addiction Counselors. People can join NAADAC and then whatever state they live in, they would join the affiliate that is a part of that.

So VAAP, the Virginia Association of Addiction Professionals is the state affiliate of NAADAC. So you can join by going to the website NAADAC.org, and you can also join by going to our website, which vaaddictionpros.org There's a button to join now, and you can join it at a bunch of different levels.

Students who are in college or studying to become addiction counselors join us. We have peer recovery specialists that join. We have people that are thinking about doing this work that are like associates. They join and then professionals and organizations as well. We have a bunch of different levels, [00:09:00] and we believe in ethical treatment for people. We have a code of ethics that we subscribe to, and we help to ensure that we are doing the best we can as professionals in our field to help others.

Chris Langley: Absolutely. If someone wants to enter this profession, Jessica, how would being a member of NAADAC help their career, would you say? What's the main goal?

Jessica Swan: Asolutely. There's a few different things that I think are really important. One is by being a member, you're showing others, and in the public sector, that you are a part of something bigger than yourself that includes advocacy at the national and state level for people who need help with addiction and mental health. and So that's one, one arm of what is a value is you get your voice elevated to national and [00:10:00] state level of legislation, and then there's other things like CEs continuing education, massive numbers of free education, on website and live. Lots of trainings. We provide them at the state level in Virginia.

But NAADAC has tons, hundreds of CEs that you can get per year to stay on top of all of the newest things that need to be addressed. New science, new clinical work that you could put into practice. You can get trained up on all kinds of stuff there. So those are the huge benefits, I would say among others. I like the networking components of this and growing my professional network by going to events and meeting people. So there's a bunch of stuff out there. Yeah.

Chris Langley: It's quite an incredible organization. It really is. I've been so impressed learning more about it. It's wonderful to see that this is available for new people who are entering the profession. You just [00:11:00] mentioned that you attended the the conference, which was in October in Washington, DC.

How was this experience and what did you do at the event?

Jessica Swan: It's a big conference. If you haven't been, it's a great conference to go to so many choices of things to do. My main reason for going is because I serve on the board. Because I am the president elect of our affiliate, then you become a board member, when you become president.

I needed to attend in order to get brought up on all of the details that are going on at the national level. That was my main work there. I also did work supporting the fundraising efforts for the Education Foundation and went to a few great sessions. There was a great session by a guy named Bosco who now is out of jail and prison, but he spent his younger life in jails and [00:12:00] prisons and trying to escape. He actually tried to escape several times, but then learned the law while he was in prison and was able to figure out how to get out of prison by representing himself in the legal system. It was just fascinating. He's actually got a movie deal. I think it's on Peacock, maybe. Bosco is what it's called. So he was great.

Chris Langley: I'm definitely going to try and check that out now. That sounds amazing. It's always lovely to hear these inspiring stories of people who have really been through an awful experience; they've come out the other end and doing some great work for their community and their country now as well. It's just wonderful to hear.

Have you got any future plans with the Virginia Association of Addiction Professionals and your own Recovery Consulting?

Jessica Swan: Oh, yeah. That's such a big question.

VAP is really trying to build out the things that the membership has asked for, and the big, thing [00:13:00] that they asked for is training and networking. I became an events chair and we created a committee.

We have members who are on a committee that are creating new events and opportunities for membership to participate in networking and learning at the same time. In 2025, we're going to have the Winter Academy. It'll be the first annual Winter Academy and this year it's going to be a two day, ASAM training of the Fourth Edition.

That's going to take place in January 16th and 17th of 2025. So that's a big new event that's been added to the roster of things that we're doing next year, and we're hoping to build off of this first one and make it bigger year by year. So that's the first thing I would say that's really big at VAAP.

We're also working on more professionalization of our work through additional training. The annual [00:14:00] meeting and training in March is going to happen, and I think it's on the 13th. 14th of March, and that'll be in Marriott Short Pump in Richmond, Virginia, where we'll do a full day training for, I think it's like $15 to pay. The ASAM training is $60, which I mean, these are so cheap relative to what you would normally have to pay. But anyway, the March event is going to be recovery allyship training for clinicians. So for clinicians that are addiction counselors, learning really how to use great language of recovery and recovery language forward, perspective integrated into your counseling practices. I'm excited about that as well.

The Recovery Consulting work we're doing is really, I was talking about this earlier, but working towards more training and education. That's really our goal right now. [00:15:00] We're looking at doing a seminar for women, a weekend seminar for women in February, several conferences are on the books for trainings across 2025.

I'm actually headed to Rome next week, Rome, Italy next week to do two keynotes. It's at an international conference for addiction and psychiatry. So that's really exciting. So it's that kind of stuff with our work that we're really trying to get to the higher level of reaching all of the professionals and the researchers and bridging some gaps with that information so that people who are clinicians can reach the research and implement that in their lives and in their counseling practices.

Chris Langley: That was a big question and certainly a big answer. That's that's incredible. With the event that you're having next year, you said in January is that an online event or is that an in person event?

Jessica Swan: In person. [00:16:00] The Winter Academy with VAAP is going to be in person. That's going to be in Bristow, Virginia on January 16th and 17th at the youth for tomorrow facilities. They have a training building, and they're offering that up for us to do this training. That's an in person training. That's going to be really a great thing. I think it's going to be a Thursday and Friday training again. It's $60 instead $450. I don't know it's crazy the discount that you get if you're a

Chris Langley: VAAP member.

Yeah. Wow.

Jessica Swan: So that's great. For me, the meaning of the work at Recovery Consulting, all of the things that I'm looking at for training work are in person as well.

The women's seminar in February is looking to be at the, in the Outer Banks, and a small group of women working towards wellness and family recovery life. That's what that's going to be about. There's an in person training in Virginia beach in April, [00:17:00] the clinical conference here in Virginia. I'm going to go, be training at that.

Chris Langley: Do you have any spare time? Okay.

Jessica Swan: Not enough, that's for sure. Actually, in my own therapy, a good therapist has a therapist, and I just met with her yesterday and that's what we talked about was like, "how do you know what's the warning signs for you in life? How do you know if you're going too far?" And that's one of the things I talked about was like, having to recognize the limits of work. Where you have to say no versus, what you can actually handle versus what you wish you can handle.

And not driving myself into the ground, which is really important as an important part of life. Let's say I don't have a perfect science on this, but this is a big part of good mental health, right?

Is making sure that I don't take on too much.

Chris Langley: So self-care is such an important component in this work. What you've just said there is a very important message for anyone in this work is look [00:18:00] after yourself and make sure that you're you're safe as well. Thank you for that. Last year, you spoke at the Department of Justice in Washington, DC, and the session delved into the topic of addiction science and how to reduce Medicaid medication assisted treatment, stigma in correctional settings, which is to me, I find fascinating.

So can you tell us about the experience and how well it was received? Please, Jessica.

Jessica Swan: Oh, yeah, that was awesome. It was a great opportunity. I have a history of doing some research work through the state opioid response grants, so the federal government has provided over the last several years through SAMHSA, which is the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. That's our big, federal grant funding offices. So they provide grants to the states and the states got these what are called SOR grants, S.O.R. State Opioid Response grants. I had the opportunity to work on the [00:19:00] implementation of the SOR grant work, in Virginia and the Department of Corrections adding that to their services. Then of course, COVID hit right during that time. It was a real nightmare. If you know anything about prisons and jails during the COVID time, if you get an outbreak in a jail or prison, you're in real trouble because people can't go anywhere. They did significant measures to lock down facilities and prevent COVID from coming through facilities, which meant tabling implementation of mass services. Anyway, so that wound up being a real hurdle and a very big, heavy lift to try to get that going. Through that process, I got introduced to many people and the research lead on that project was someone named Megan Davidson. She reached out to me to do this teaching because I have a [00:20:00] expertise in teaching on neuroscience and addiction. Because I had this intersection with that, as well as, this work on working within the justice system and trying to do some implementation work and trying to reduce stigma with sheriffs and leaders within the corrections facilities was a big part of the preemptive work I was doing. It turns out that, historically, a lot of people did not want mass services in their jails and prisons. The leaders, the administrators, the sheriffs, the people like that, the prison wardens. They were worried about diversion of drugs. They were worried about, let's say methadone coming in or even suboxone coming in and then people taking it and then hiding it and then selling it and creating a black market and stuff like that.

So working on measures to try to reduce that process, reduce the likelihood of that. The main one to prevent that from [00:21:00] happening is to offer it to everybody. It's very simple is that you offer this to everyone as a part of their treatment and then there's no market for it being anything other than you get it. So you don't need to hide it and sell it.

So that was a big part of this. So, the work I actually did at the Department of Justice was to teach all of the grant folks, for a different grant, the directors from around the United States, on the neuroscience of addiction and what MAT is, what medication assisted treatment is and the different tiers and types of medications, as well as the treatments that go along with it.

So frequently, when we talk about Medication Assisted Treatment, we talk about medication, but we forget the assisted treatment part. It's actually a combination of things that provide the most success for people. It's not just doling out meds. Which people have a mental [00:22:00] hurdle to get over about that. That was my job there was to help everybody from around the United States, that are leading these programs, to understand like the, more knowledge that's out there, the less stigma there is. and that is really, a charge of all of the leadership around Medication Assisted Treatment, around Opioid Response Work, around addiction generally is trying to get the proper education to all the people. Then if the leaders have that proper education, they can then provide that to everybody

else.

Chris Langley: Did you, find when you were talking to leaders and sheriffs that they were, they had their feet dug into the ground somewhat initially when you approached them about this? Because it's, quite a new approach to explain to some people, and did you find that they changed their minds quite quickly once you explained it to them fully?

It's a tough, one, isn't it?

Jessica Swan: Great question because it's so dependent on, it's dependent on a lot [00:23:00] of things. Yes, many, okay, I'm going to say this in a nice way, right? Like a lot of law enforcement folks, have a certain type of perspective because they're dealing with the problem, like the problematic behavior, the legal, law breaking behavior that many people with addiction find themselves in.

So police officers and frontline workers in the field of law enforcement are dealing with really difficult stuff day in and day out, and they are going to be more likely to have a perspective of, "let's get you into the jail and let you know, you serve your time." That's their perspective, right?

That's the safety issue, not a treatment issue. That's really starting to change. That's really starting to change now. That was very much how it used to be, but there's a lot of leaders, [00:24:00] sheriffs, and beat cops, right? That really are, community policing based and believe in having right along services with them with behavioral health workers along with them to help, deter, all of this, right?

So really, one of the things that we can do off the bat is help people from the get go through getting them treatment services instead of putting them directly into jail. There's some really great deterrence programs and diversion programs rather than going into the jail and having to do it opposite. Now, you're in jail, and now we're having to provide you treatment in there, which is also really important. So the answer the long answer is yes, a lot of people were dug in the beginning of this process. I would say 5 and 10 years ago, in particular 10 years ago, really hard to get people just change their minds and get switched over. Even [00:25:00] in the problem solving courts where I was working, it was hard to get people to say, "yes, we can have medication and that's a part of this process."

What we're seeing now after 10 years of that is that more and more people are saying it isn't an "either or" it can be a "both and process." Some people can go to full abstinence. and medication on top of that. Some people don't need medication. There's a wide continuum of types of people with a wide variety of needs, and we need to be more adept at providing those services to people.

One other thing I want to say about all of this is that there is a viewpoint that it's cruel and unusual punishment to force somebody into a jail or prison without providing them the right care for detoxing off of opioids, or any other type of detox, and in fact, it [00:26:00] can cause death for some people, benzodiazepine and alcohol detox can kill people. It is the responsibility. That's a constitutional right that every human has is to not experience cruel, and unusual punishment.

I think that combined with using the American Disabilities Act, both of those things legal as legal arguments for the support of providing, addiction services to those who are in trouble with the law is a part of the support services that they are required to provide now.

The legal side of this, the legal pressure that was put on the Department of Corrections and state and county sheriff's offices, those are the things that really have changed the viewpoint.

Chris Langley:

It's so good to hear over here that [00:27:00] professionals like yourself are addressing this and that they're helping change people's minds around addiction because it's shouldn't be treated, my own personal view, it shouldn't be treated as a criminal justice thing. It's a health need.

It really is, and it's wonderful to hear that. I used to do this a lot in the UK with police officers, and it was lovely to always see that when they realize that, treatment saves the community. It's, wonderful.

So a word that you mentioned was stigma and this comes up every one of my podcast, Jessica.

So how do you think this word alone can affect people wanting to address their addiction? And why do you think this is still such a barrier in this day and age? It just seems absurd.

Jessica Swan: It does seem absurd. Why is this a barrier? My mind went quickly because there is a whole research area on cognitive cognitive [00:28:00] problems that humans have, and this is one of them is that we get dug in on an idea and have a hard time, getting new information in that counters the belief that we might have.

So that's part of it is that there's strong, long-held beliefs around, the free will of the individual. That's like taking us in a substance and then behaving badly. That's what from the outside is if you knew nothing about anything about addiction or the behaviors around it, you would say, "Oh, why is that person like taking in that substance and then acting out badly. That they clearly have a moral problem. They don't have good self control." So I think objectively, that's where the problem comes from is just seeing that and not understanding what goes into it, what actually is going on behind that? What's driving that person's brain to do that? [00:29:00] The expression of it is the use of the substance and then the behavior, but what's actually going on is, it's a neurobiological and highly genetic problem, that we now know from the Human Genome Project is like extremely genetic. I think the more science, the more education, and the more that we just are open about things. The less stigma there is. When you think about other things that stigma has changed around, it has been around education and being open about what's happening. So there's movements like Recovery Out Loud, or like The Anonymous People or things like that, where it's like let's get our voices out there and let people see us, as people in recovery.

I am candidly also in recovery, long term recovery from drugs and alcohol. If we're talking [00:30:00] about that, and it's not a big deal. It's a big deal that we're able to do it and change our lives. The perception is from all the way back to the early 1900s that you're destitute and on the street. Those are the people that are like so horrible, and they're crime causing dirty people. Those are the people with alcoholism and addiction problems. The truth is it's everybody. It's your mom. It's your sister. It's your nephew or niece. I think the more that we talk about that, the more we see that every human is related to someone who has a problem with substance use disorder.

Chris Langley: Yeah, the statistics around that is quite phenomenal in this country. I think they said one in one in three people, one in three people have a family member that's going through this,

Jessica Swan: Yeah. And that's

Chris Langley: probably higher.

I'm sure it probably is. That's something I read the other day, and I was like, "Oh, blimey, that sounds like a lot." Yeah, [00:31:00] thank you for that, Jessica.

I read on your LinkedIn that Richmond, Virginia is the first designated recovery city in the United States. Can you explain this to our audience and how Richmond was given this amazing sounding title?

Jessica Swan: Oh, my gosh. It's so cool. I wasn't directly involved in this, but I got so excited when I learned about it. So really, this is a big piece of work by the Mayor of Richmond, LaVar Stoney, and along with a bunch of other agencies in the Commonwealth. So there's the Office of Recovery Services here in Virginia, which is a very cool thing that they created during the SOR grant funding process, through DBHDS, which is the Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Services. It's basically like HHS, but it's the Virginia version of that. They, formed an office specific for recovery services, [00:32:00] and I think they partnered up with the Virginia Department of Health. They got the National Alliance of Recovery Residences and the Virginia affiliate of that involved and announced it at national conference, the NAAR conference, just a few weeks ago.

So a really exciting project, that there's places around the world, I guess there's 30 other locations around the world that are designated this way. The concept is that we reduce stigma by ensuring that resources are available to anyone who needs those services within that city. That's what Richmond has been committed to is, how can we make sure that we have the resources available to anyone who might need them, and make sure that people know what recovery services are out there and that they're able to access and use those services wisely and help them to recover. [00:33:00] That's the concept and that is why Richmond was designated in this way is because the mayor is committed to that.

I think to having that be a legacy of his, and I think there's a bunch of agencies in the state that are willing to really help support that and put that information out there and provide those

Chris Langley: resources.

Wow. A big shout out to your mayor on that one. That's an incredible achievement. So one of 30 locations around the world.

Jessica Swan: Yeah, exactly. And the first in the US.

Chris Langley: Goodness me. That's just incredible. I wanted to ask that because when I read that, I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is just incredible stuff." So big congratulations to your state there. I'd just like to say one statistic I read was that the latest data from the state department of health finds that nearly 2,500 Virginians have overdosed and died in 2022.

So how is Virginia currently coping with the opioid crisis and what harm reduction services are available for people who are using opioids or other substances in your state?

Jessica Swan: [00:34:00] Those numbers are high, right? I don't know what 2023 look like. I do know that there's starting to be a decline in this problem,

Jessica Swan: probably due to the availability of naloxone. In Virginia, we have something called the revive program. R. E. V. I. V. E. And you can access free naloxone kits.

You can get trained on it. You can provide that to training to other people. If you have a program, you can get free naloxone and give it out. It's really quite good. quite good. That's So one of the great things that is provided here. There's mobile outreach programs. I always think, Virginia is unique, but then it's actually not. Much of the United States, the states have these urban pockets with lots of rural areas, and that is Virginia. Virginia has a mountainous area that is quite rural. [00:35:00] We have a rural Southwest Virginia, and then on the coast, there's a few big cities, plus Richmond. So it's unique in that it's a big state, lots of rural spaces. Then, like I said, I think that, and then I think, so many states are like this. There's lots of rural and then these pockets of urban. Needless to say that requires some outreach when you're outside of the urban area, in order to try to provide services to people that otherwise wouldn't have access.

They've created here, some mobile outreach programs, trucks that come through town and are providing medications and services and trainings and opportunities to get some resources. I think there's, something called a comprehensive harm reduction process. So it's CHR, comprehensive harm reduction, and in Virginia, the Virginia Department of Health has been committed to doing a full [00:36:00] comprehensive harm reduction process. So it's a whole set of public services, not just one thing. We frequently think of when we think of harm reduction, people think of, like needle exchange programs.

Where people can use clean needles to keep using or something and that can be really highly controversial too. I think to some of the public. But really what we're talking about is providing a set of services. That's one thing that some people might need. If those people aren't going to stop using, it would be really helpful if they stop spreading disease. So that's the idea behind that. It's okay, so that's one level or one type of harm reduction. Naloxone is another type where it would be really helpful if people weren't dying from overdosing. Then there's a whole other set of things like providing peer support for people, providing education to people, providing, actual referrals for peer support treatment. [00:37:00] These are harm reduction components of a comprehensive harm reduction model. Providing testing for HIV, hepatitis, sexually transmitted diseases and other types of linkages for medical and support services, particularly mental health, but also regular physical health services, getting comprehensive checkup. These are all types of harm reduction that need to be provided and that the Virginia Department of Health is doing. That's amazing.

Chris Langley: It really does. You've actually just answered my next question because I was going to ask you about harm reduction, but I think you've answered that incredibly thoroughly. So thank you for that. It sounds like Virginia is doing some amazing work. I've been doing these podcasts for a little while now, and it's lovely to hear a state that is addressing this head on and not running away from it or just trying to ignore it.

So it's just wonderful to hear. Last couple of questions, Jessica, do you have a message for anyone listening to this podcast who is going through an [00:38:00] addiction?

Jessica Swan: Yeah. I think the first thing that comes to mind is the concept of putting a semicolon in instead of a period in your life. There's a, whole movement a few years ago about this suicide prevention movement; let's put a semicolon there in your life rather than a period and ending it. That is how I view it. The process of recovery from addiction is you can recover, treatment works, and you don't have to give up. Giving up means putting that period in and saying, "I'm done. I don't deserve to move forward with my life." I want you to think about putting a semicolon there and saying, "I feel that way right now, and there is hope for a better day tomorrow, and I might just need some help to get [00:39:00] there." Reaching out for help is the number one thing that we need to be able to do that is so hard for us to do is to say, "I need help. Can you please help me? I don't know what to do." It's okay to say that.

Chris Langley: Thank you very much indeed, Jessica. Last question. Can you tell our listeners how best to contact you and find your service online, please?

Jessica Swan: Totally, so my website is recoveryconsulting.org and that's probably the easiest way to find me. I do have an email, which is jswan@recoveryconsulting.org. If you wanna reach out, connect. If you have questions or need any support, reach out to me directly through my email, and we can connect and figure out a way to help you.

Chris Langley: Jessica, it's been a real honor and a privilege to hear about the amazing work that you're doing for the community and for the country. It really was. It's been lovely talking to you. Thank you so much for your time today.

Jessica Swan: [00:40:00] Thank you so much.

Do, do, do, do, do.