Ep28 Addiction Treatment | Recovery = Being Whole

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley: Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host, Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest, Deborah Babbitt. Deborah is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Therapist at the Recovery Village in Raytown, Kansas City, Missouri.

She also has a private practice, which we're going to learn more about in today's podcast. Welcome to the Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, Deb. It's great to have you with us today.

Deborah Babbitt: Thank you so much. I'm very pleased and honored to be here.

Chris Langley: Oh, we really appreciate you being here as well. And we're really looking forward to hearing about the great work that you're doing and with your career. So I know you're very busy today, so we're going to get started. Can you tell us about yourself and how you started working at the Recovery Village in Kansas City?

Deborah Babbitt: It's funny that I did because it was the last population I ever wanted to work with. If someone would have asked me, they did in social work school, what populations would you never want to work with? And I immediately said addiction. And I think that was really tempered or fed by my experiences in my personal life with people with addiction.

I was very angry about addiction, and I think like a lot of people who are impacted by other people's addiction, I took it very personally and thought it was saying, "I don't love you enough." And coming into addiction, it wasn't even an intentional thing to make it my focus. I had been doing some drum therapy groups, contracted with a psychiatric hospital, and they were opening this new recovery center really close to where I live. The executive director was a person I had worked with before at the psychiatric hospital. "Oh, she'll let me do groups there. I'll go in and take my drums and do drum groups there." And I reached out to her. She didn't respond to me. I'm like, "well, she's busy. They're opening a brand new place. She doesn't have time to deal with me."

And I wouldn't have been surprised if she didn't even remember who I was, I waited and then all of a sudden they're advertising to hire therapists. I'll get my foot in the door like that. So I applied for the job and I came in and I presented, I just want to come in and do some drum groups, and the guy said, "nah, I want to hire you full time." I was doing private practice full time, and I thought, "I don't know." I sat there with kind of nothing in the noggin because I wasn't prepared for that. Yeah. I'm like, "okay, I'll do it." So I honed down my private practice enough and started switching things to more evenings and my days off and started here in April. She has 24, 22 and discovered a whole new way of understanding what addiction was in the lives of people who are impacted by it. And I've been here ever since and have decided that all the things I've done in my career have put me in this place, the knowledge that I have to work with this group of people.

Chris Langley: Congratulations on the mind shift yourself and to understand addiction and to realize that you can change your views on addiction and people who are going through addiction. You said it was a very personal journey for yourself as well, and here you are now working down in Kansas City as a full time worker and you also have your own private practice, Deb.

Can you tell us about this and how long have you been doing this and what, what you do?

Deborah Babbitt: It's really on my third year of private practice work doing individual therapy. It wasn't a goal of mine when I entered the field to do private practice, but it was just something that came about almost organically. People were telling me I would be good at it, and I'm like, "I don't know." I decided to venture into that and, discovered a lot about what that meant. Because entering private practice ,I had the DSM-5 to guide me for diagnostic stuff. Then I had, this book about a psychotherapy treatment planner, so I'm armed and ready to do private practice and pretty much never cracked the treatment planner book. Use the DSM-5 very little because it's not cut and dry. People come and they tell me their story. What's going on with them? What are they looking for? We don't open the treatment planner book. It's what are your goals? What do you need? And, they tell me what they hope to get.

And it's let's create a roadmap. And that's my treatment plan.

Chris Langley: So how did you find, how did you find starting a private practice? Cause that's, a big step as well, isn't it?

Deborah Babbitt: Well, it is. I'm going to be doing it again soon in another state. So, I hope I have the experience under my belt to make it a little more smooth. I actually am working with a company, it's Madison Avenue Psychological Services. I'm working under their umbrella, so that made entry pretty easy. So when I move to Oregon, I will be doing it under my own LLC.

Chris Langley: So you're going to be, so you're going to be moving to Oregon.

Deborah Babbitt: Yes,

Chris Langley: That's a big move.

Deborah Babbitt: Yeah. And I can't think of, I shouldn't, I don't want to say that in my experience, having visited the Portland area several times now over the last few years. I see so much need there for the work we do. My family lives out there, so I'm not just going to where the need is. I'm actually going for personal reasons, but I do feel like that's a place where someone needs to make a difference.

Chris Langley: Most definitely. Most definitely. What you enjoy most about helping people with addictions and people going through mental health traumas. What do you enjoy most?

Deborah Babbitt: The first thing, the very first thing is when they begin to realize the impact that their drug or alcohol use or behaviors has had on their life and the people that they love. Because denial is such a strong force in what they've experienced and their belief, their own belief that they have a choice in what they're doing when it's gone way beyond choice. They still think they have power over it. They still think that they can just decide, "I'm just not going to do it anymore." When they realize that it is like someone who has cancer to say, "I'm not going to have cancer anymore," or someone with diabetes, "I'm tired of this, I'm not going to have diabetes anymore." It's the same thing, and when they really understand that, that is the moment that everything can happen. That is the moment where they can start seeing hope, that I can start giving hope.

Chris Langley: most? Definitely. That's beautifully put. There are things that you enjoy when helping people with addictions and mental health. But what are some of the challenges that you experienced working with this client group?

Deborah Babbitt: I want to tell you a story about a young man, came into treatment, captured everybody's heart, and did everything right. Showed up for all the groups, was engaged in individual therapy. He was in treatment for 40 days. He had a fantastic plan, and this was not his first treatment. He had been in other treatment centers and had gone through programs before. And I just knew we were going to dig down and autopsy his addiction and autopsy his recoveries and find out what the missing pieces were. And we did that. We dug down, and we said, "Hey, you need, You need a support group. You need a community. You need connection. You need to be with other people in recovery." And he committed that he would, go to AA groups. And we have AA groups here at our facility that meet daily. And he had gone to all of those. So I had no question he was going to continue this. On his 41st day, he discharged, went home. Didn't hear from him. And we don't usually hear from people because there's not a program of follow up for that. The next time I saw him, he was in our detox unit. His face was swollen up like a pumpkin. His eyes were red. He looked so ashamed and all of us here felt his pain because not only did he relapse, but now he has to come back into the same center, into the same program that he had just left a few weeks earlier. So he was embarrassed, and he was shameful. And he felt he let us all down and we dug down again. What happened? What went wrong? He was like, "I just couldn't make myself go to a meeting. I was scared. It was awkward. What am I supposed to do?" It's like you'd been to meetings and he said, "yeah, but just our meetings. But it was like, these, I didn't know anyone." And anyway, that became the plan. So during his treatment, this time, I was sending him out into the community to go to meetings, like during his treatment. Pick out some meetings go. Someone from here would take him and go with him to these meetings. And that became a big deal. And he was really doing great. Then, his work called him and said, "you don't have a year in yet? You're fired." He had already missed 40 days of work. Didn't have a year, and he wasn't eligible for FMLA, stuff like that.

So they were just going to fire him, and they did. He lost his insurance immediately, and he had to discharge. So I haven't heard from him. I haven't heard from him. I haven't heard from him, and I can't reach out. Wouldn't be ethical for me to reach out. And the miracle is this week he sent me an email with a picture of him and his mother and his girlfriend, which is a new girlfriend at the river, holding hands with the sun setting, looking so healthy and so amazing.

And all he wrote is "happy." But that tells me everything that he is recovering. He's doing it, and the most heartbreaking thing is seeing people go through that process and to work so hard and to try so hard and then lose a job, lose insurance because of the disease they have.

Chris Langley: Absolutely devastating, isn't it?

Deborah Babbitt: I was, it's again, if he had a cardiac issue, if he had heart disease and he had to miss this much work, they would have been taking up collections. They would have sending him flowers. There would be a meal train, but because addiction is his disease, he can get fired and just lose everything. But he didn't lose hope. And he did all he could do to recover and to move forward in his life and the picture he sent me this week tells me that he did just that.

Chris Langley: That's an amazing story. I can only imagine what that felt to you to receive that email. That must have been pretty powerful.

Deborah Babbitt: I was walking on sunshine

Chris Langley: Yeah, I bet you were. I bet you were.

Deborah Babbitt: I still

Chris Langley: am.

Yep. I can tell that's that's lovely to hear. And it is these moments with the clients that you know that something, the fact that he emailed you as well.

You were always in the back of his mind to say, "I've got a contact Deb and to say things that things are okay. I'm doing okay." And that's, that's down to the great work that you've done. I can't imagine he would have emailed everyone he'd ever work with.

Deborah Babbitt: Something changed.

Chris Langley: yeah,

Deborah Babbitt: Something, took hold.

Chris Langley: It certainly did, and it's obviously the great work that you've been doing.

Deborah Babbitt: I'd

Like to think I'd like to think that what took hold was his own decision that he cared about his life,

Chris Langley: was

Deborah Babbitt: that

Chris Langley: just that moment. He lost everything, but he soldiered on and just carried on and thought things have got to change now. And, Soldier on, as we say in the UK. Yes. Thank you

Chris Langley: so much for sharing that story. That's wonderful to hear.

You also work with families. You just explained a little bit about that, but which, working with families is a vital component of addiction treatment. Can you tell us about how you work with family members? Also about some of the challenges that you may face when educating family members of those who are going through addictions?

Deborah Babbitt: That is such an important aspect because addiction is a family disease. Anyone who has family or any kind of connection with other people that the impact, it impacts that relationship, and it impacts those people. I don't, I didn't prepare to have a comparison with a disease, but I know that when my daughter-in-law was diagnosed with breast cancer, it wiped us all out. We were all devastated. She beat it by the way. She's been cancer free for 10 years, but it impacted all of us. So any disease has that impact. So it's not just addiction that impacts the whole family, but disease does, and especially life threatening diseases. So working with families, I think, it's really important to start with education. They need to understand the disease of addiction. They need to let go of the idea that someone could love them enough to be cured of a disease. That it's not about the relationship, and it's not about being, made the last priority. But it's a disease process. And I think that's like the first step is making sure they understand the disease of addiction. They need to understand the path that addiction takes. And I use that, is it Jellinek Curve? Have you heard of that?

Chris Langley: I have, yeah.

Deborah Babbitt: It charts charts out, addiction and recovery, and it even has this little loop at the bottom of the curve. We could just keep going on a little roundabout. It just keep going around and around until you decide to get off the highway. That is really important. Another thing that comes up a lot with families is, at the treatment center I work at, our doctor is a strong advocate for medication assisted therapies, and a lot of families are very resistant to that. They don't support that, and giving them information about why it is, needed. When, to reduce cravings, to allow the brain to heal and that it's not just replacing one, addiction with another. That it's actually medicine to help the brain heal, to allow the brain to heal itself. I think those are the two main things, and, of course, communication skills, setting boundaries, understanding roles in the family that family members assume, helping them understand their role in the addictive family, and helping them strategize on how to stop covering up, how to stop making things work, how to stop being a scapegoat. So all the different roles that show up in addictive families, people need to understand where they fit and what do they want to do to change that, empowering people to make change.

Chris Langley: Have you, found with family members when you've sat down and spoken to them about, medication substance, suboxone or methadone, or have you seen lots of families change their views because you've explained you've sat down and explained the reality of this to them?

Deborah Babbitt: I'm really wanting to say 100 percent of the time, but I know it can't be that.

Chris Langley: Yeah, sure. 5%.

Deborah Babbitt: 90 percent of the time it happens every time.

Chris Langley: There you go. That's pretty good numbers. Yeah.

Deborah Babbitt: Once they understand what it is and once they can see what's happening in the brain with addiction, because we have to, explain it by neurologically. This is what's happening with addiction and this is how his brain is responding to what's happening with addiction and that brain has to heal. And it can't heal if it's constantly struggling with cravings.

Chris Langley: 90 percent is a massive number. It really is. And, it's just amazing.

Deborah Babbitt: They changed their minds or at least they tell me they do. At least they will say, "let me talk to my family doctor. Let me talk to someone else." And it's, the barriers to that, is, replacing one substance with another. And oddly, the other barrier is the lack of trust that "oh, you're just trying to get him on another medicine so that, to get more money, to get him hooked on this. And then it's money, money, it's big pharma. It's this and that." And it's, it's no, it's to give him a chance or to give her a chance. it's creating possibility.

Chris Langley: Most definitely. You mentioned a word earlier, and this comes up whenever I speak to great professionals, such as yourself, Deb is the word stigma. This to me is one of the biggest barriers for people to take that important first step in accessing recovery services. Why do you think this is?

Why do you think stigma has such a big role in stopping people walk through the door for the first time?

Deborah Babbitt: How could it not? How could

it not? We have demonized,

in our culture, in our public policy, in, our pulpits, and in our schools. We demonized demon rum, demon crack. It's all, it's bad, it's criminal.

We've criminalized a disease. So how could it not be a stigma? People who have stepped up and said, "I'm an addict or I'm an alcoholic." It's like immediate people are ready to turn their back. If I'm on, okay, and I'm not saying I do this, but if I'm on a dating app and someone said I'm in recovery, I got a swipe. Right? I don't want to invite that. It's just, no, it's just drama.

It's going to be pain, but that's the stigma. It's like people can't present themselves. They don't have the language. We don't use the right language, the language we use. I had someone come in here today or not today, but a few weeks ago, what was the word he used? It was something like, "I am, I'm a bum, I'm a bum. I'm a loser. I am worthless. I'm an alcoholic. I'm a drunk. I'm a dope head. I'm a crack head. I'm a stoner." There's all this really negative language that we use for people who are struggling with the disease. The list, we could, fill my whole office walls with these words. Couldn't we? All these negative, painful words, and to hear someone, "Hi, I'm Deb, I'm an alcoholic. Hi, I'm Deb, I'm addicted to gambling. Hi, I'm Deb, I'm a crackhead." And it's like, why are we using these words? I'd rather you, I would rather people feel empowered to say, "hi, I'm Deb. I'm a person in recovery because I've been sober for seven days, seven years, 70 years. I'm a person in recovery." And in all of the movements, all of the advocacy for disability, right?

We don't say that, we don't even like to say the word "disability" anymore. It's, no, it's too negative. We're, saying "that person with:..., I, I worked in dialysis for a long time, so it wasn't that person, the person is in kidney failure or some, but it was like "the person with the disease." I'm not going to say "I'm a cancer patient. I'm going to say I'm a person with cancer. I'm a person on dialysis. I'm a person," that we don't, we no longer identify a person as their disease, but yet I could call you a drunk and no one would bat an eye. It's not fair. So where does stigma come from? We allow it. We encourage it. We enforce it. And even when we see, yeah, we will see the guy on the street in the tent, on the sidewalk in front of the old furniture store. We will see him, and we will automatically assume that he is a crack head or a meth head, or heroin or whatever. We will assume that he's an addict of some kind, and we will avert our gaze. And we will be scared, and we will keep going. But we see the man in the suit walking out of the bank who's on his way to happy hour and then he'll go home and drink the rest of his night away. And we would go up there and shake his hand because we don't know his story, but we think we know the story of the guy in the tent. We think we know that story, but we don't know that story either.

Chris Langley: What you said, we, criminalized health, we criminalized addiction. That really resonated with me and what you just said about stigma. It's so true, but it's very societal. It really does halt people entering treatment. It stops people talking to their families, their loved ones. And it's just tragic.

It really is. And it's, thank you for that explanation. And, that was really powerful, Deb. go on.

Deborah Babbitt: you're, I'm sorry. Did you watch the movie Swordfish?

John Travolta.

Chris Langley: Oh yeah,

Deborah Babbitt: Everyone's watched it. It was a great movie. And at the very beginning of the movie, he's sitting there and he's giving a metaphor of a movie called Dark Day Afternoon. "What if Sonny would have?" Okay. I like to posit this question. What if? What if? Back in 19 60, whatever, when the American Medical Association and the government decided that addiction was a disease. What if we would have gathered together and if we would have gone out on the streets and we would have demanded that we have not just treatment, but we have recovery support. What if we had vigils and we had signs and torches and, t-shirts that matched. What if, because you've seen that work with the AIDS epidemic that this shut down stigmatized population was it was like, "we have to speak or we will die." And, they were heard. We know all about breast cancer because of organizations like Susan Koman. We know about things because of the advocacy that's being done on the grassroots of people standing up and saying, "I want to be heard. I have a voice and I want treatment available. I want the stigma removed, and I want to have recovery support." But I also want you to look at every time I walk down the road, and I pass a liquor store or a go into a gas station and there's wall of not just alcohol, but kratom and all kinds of stimulant supplements and everything you can imagine.

And I can buy a crack pipe at the same gas station.

Chris Langley: yeah.

Deborah Babbitt: I can't, go into the grocery store or the Walmart without seeing a big liquor section. There's no where I can go that's safe. There's no safe havens. If I want to go out and have a nice dinner with my family, I can't walk into a restaurant without first encountering the bar. It is right there. And how am I going to stay sober in this society? Where not only do I not have the policy, for medical treatment and recovery support, but I'm also having to face the thing that's killing me every time I leave my house. Cigarettes. They can't advertise those on television, and they don't even have them all over the place when I go into a store. If someone asks me to buy them a pack of cigarettes, I have to ask someone at the store, "where do I find cigarettes?" Cause they're not just out there, but I, can't go through the store without finding a whole wall of different beer and wine and every kind of beautiful bottle sitting there being seductive with their beautiful shapes and colors.

And

Chris Langley: It's very purposeful. Yeah.

Deborah Babbitt: I'm not even going to go into glassware. I'm not even going into glassware. I could.

Chris Langley: With this country going through probably one of the worst outbreaks of addiction with the opioid and now the fentanyl crisis, Deb, how is Missouri coping with this and what harm reduction initiatives are in place?

Deborah Babbitt: Missouri ranked 32 out of 50 for drug overdose, deaths in 2022. Missouri ranked 32 out of 50. 50 is the worst for overdose deaths in 2022. It went down a little bit, but not significantly. In Missouri, opiate or opioid overdose is the number one cause of death among adults between 18 and 44 in Missouri. Missouri used to be the home of the meth capital of the country in Independence, Missouri. Fentanyl has made its way here now. Kansas City, the area I live in, is the second worst. St. Louis County, is the most hard hit by fentanyl and other opioids. There's now a standing order in Missouri that naloxone is available to anyone from any pharmacy in Missouri without a prescription. So anyone can walk in and buy naloxone, which is Narcan. Well, it costs money. When I asked, it was $40.

Chris Langley: Each

Deborah Babbitt: Very close.

Chris Langley: yeah

Deborah Babbitt: So I looked for, how can I get free? How can I get free Narcan? There's a lot of community based organizations. A lot of our health departments will provide it that you go in. It can be anonymous, and you can get it. So I looked at the map. St. Louis has quite a few. Kansas City has several. There's a few scattered places in college towns. Springfield, Missouri, Kirksville and along the I-70 corridor for Columbia is, there's a few along that corridor. And then there's just vast areas of no access for harm reduction .

Chris Langley: In rural areas, would you say rural areas have less...

Deborah Babbitt: The rural areas, there's just nothing there. So I'm assuming they could walk into the drug store and buy it, but as far as getting free. It's just not available. There's a lot of grassroots campaigns in Missouri. Let's see the Mo's Heroes Project. They provide education and harm reduction for people within the criminal justice system. There's a group called No Mo Deaths that is working towards education and harm reduction. Between the state government, county government, city governments, and grassroots organization it's is moving in the right direction. And I looked at the map of the whole United States and the Midwest is like where there's more, where there's less available ability to get on the coast and the red dots just cover all along the coast and the more you move in, the less populated those kind of programs are.

Chris Langley: It's good to hear Missouri at least trying to do something. I think, it's, very, slow, but at least they're doing something because I've spoken to quite a few people on the podcast, and you hear just nothing going on within their states or it's very small. I'm glad to hear at least that something's, at least available, but that's still quite an expense.

But, OK,

Deborah Babbitt: Going back to the criminalization piece, Missouri highway patrol has a program called D.A.R.E. It's going into schools to teach kids to give them education about the risk of using drugs and alcohol and they drive really cool cars. And the kids love them. And my children who are 40 ish or approaching 40 still remember that cool car that the D.A.R.E guy drove to the school every week. Loved him. I even read that the D.A.R.E program they had bought one of those Tesla trucks, those big, Whatever. And yeah, so kids are going to love that truck when it pulls into their school, right? They're going to be climbing all over it, wanting rides and they get their attention, and then once they get their attention, they give them the education about the impact of drug and alcohol use. Sadly, by the time these kids get into, junior high and high school, that has a lot less impact on them. "I'm just best friends with the D.A.R.E guy. yeah, that's why I'm here in recovery now."

Chris Langley: wow. So I suppose

Deborah Babbitt: I learned so much about drugs and alcohol. I was the expert.

Chris Langley: I think I've heard it there before. Wasn't that since Reagan's days? That was was that when they came in? I think

Deborah Babbitt: I don't know the political roots of it, but, and I'm not saying it's not a good program, but I don't know if kids need to be educated on, I don't know, don't know. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm saying

it's not enough.

Chris Langley: No, I understand. Yeah, definitely. Most definitely. No, I totally agree with you. Deb, I ask all of my guests this question, because I get some really interesting and varied answers when I ask this, but can you tell me your opinion of harm reduction, what harm reduction is and how it plays such a pivotal role in recovery?

Deborah Babbitt: Well harm reduction, like Narcan, can reverse a drug overdose and save a life. Why is that important? Because with, fentanyl, there's so such a high risk of overdose, just a little minuscule tip of a pin amount is deadly. And this is coming into our country from everywhere. I won't name names, but China and Mexico, I don't know, it's always somewhere, right? Middle East brought us opiates.

I don't know, but it's and it doesn't matter where it's coming from, but it's coming and it's coming like a river, a tsunami that it keeps coming and keep coming and people are using it to boost the impact of things like marijuana. Marijuana, that's a safe drug.

It's blah, blah, blah. guess what? the best thing about legalization of marijuana is that it's regulated. and so at least, people may not be getting fentanyl laced marijuana, but they're still going to get fentanyl laced oxycodone or oxycontin. They're still getting it fentanyl laced anything.

They just don't know. Because it sells. They buy heroin, and it's mostly fentanyl and they get very addicted. It's very addictive. So it's easy to overdose on. So if these people who are in the the trenches who are in the lifestyle, I guess if they are educated on how to use Narcan, they can arrest overdose and save lives.

Chris Langley: It was interesting what you said about the marijuana and obviously Missouri is legalized now as well. I've never heard it be called a harm reduction initiative. And I love that because of what we're now experiencing with fentanyl in marijuana. I've been doing this podcast now for just under a year and I keep hearing this about marijuana.

And I just can't believe it. It's just, I can't fathom that this is even an issue because it shouldn't be. But like you said, a regulated market, although it's very, it's a little bit controversial, but if it's saving lives alone, that's well worth it.

Deborah Babbitt: I think it is and I haven't heard it either, but my grandson is a bud tender at a dispensary, and he started out just helping people with medical marijuana and stuff and now it's legal so everyone comes in. But we had a conversation about it, and I told him it's before, before it became legal, I worried, about where this was coming from, what's the source, and how can we know? Because if someone laces it with fentanyl, which happens a lot, then you're gonna become very addicted to that substance. And pretty soon you're laying down the pipe and you're just going for the fentanyl. And, he said, well, good thing it was legalized because now it's regulated. And that's what made me realize that. In a sense, it is harm reduction.

Chris Langley: It's a very different slant on the whole issue. That's really interesting. I've never thought of that, but yeah, I completely agree with you on that, Deb. That's fascinating. Thank you for explaining to us that. Last couple of questions, you're a member of NAADAC. So how long have you been a member and how has being a member of this national organization helped you as a professional therapist?

Deborah Babbitt:

I'm glad you asked me that because in every population I've worked with, there's been a professional organization for that. When I worked for hospice and palliative care, there's an organization for that. When I worked with, just strictly mental health, there's an organization for that. When I worked with dialysis, there's organizations for that. With cancer, lots of organizations for that. And so when I came in, started working in addiction, A few things popped up for me, but I didn't commit. Like I never committed to joining any of these organizations. And when I learned about NAADAC Iwas like, researching what does it do?

What, would it do for me? What would it give me? Why would it be important to be a part of? And, I saw that there's, education and training. There's certifications. And that if I want to do this in earnest, I need that those credentials. And I had to think, and I had to like, ask myself, "is this my terminal point of my career to work with this population? Is this indeed where everything else has led me? And is it worth this investment?" And I decided it was, so it's only been in the last few months that I joined the organization and met you.

Chris Langley: Sure did. Meet great people there, Deb. That's awesome. Last question, Deb. Do you have a message for anyone listening to this podcast who is going through addiction at the moment?

Deborah Babbitt: It's a simple message and I've seen it on stickers lately and I'm going to buy like a million stickers and pass them out. Recover loudly so people won't die in silence.

Chris Langley: That's a great sticker. And that's a great phrase. I love it. Wow. Last question, Deb, can you tell our listeners how to best contact you, and to find the Recovery Village and your own private practice online?

Deborah Babbitt: Recovery Village originated in Florida, and it was developed by two medical doctors who said "we've got to find a better way to help people," and they created Advanced Recovery Systems. That is the corporate parent for Recovery Villages and there are, there's Recovery Villages in, I can't. I won't be able to name all the states, but Florida, obviously, Kansas city. there's one in, I think Denver or in Colorado somewhere, Washington, um, they're opening one in Salem, Oregon, which is where I'm hoping to go work. But there, if you looked online for Recovery Village, you'll see where they're located around the country, and they are, They have a program that works and that is, very, person centered. We also look at the co-occurring pieces. We're not just trying to get you sober and out the door. We provide. Detox services and then residential services. And we're looking at the whole person. So we are looking at trauma. We're looking at childhood acute stress. We're looking at chronic childhood stress.

We're looking at relationship problems. We're looking at everything that's contributing to the pain people are experiencing. And this is the model that Recovery Village has. There's an admission line, a national admissions line that people can call. And it is 1-844-217-7185 and there's also advancedrecoverysystems.com. Currently my private practice is with Madison Avenue Psychological Services. You can also find me on the Psychology Today website. Let me see, find a therapist. Um, my private direct number to me is 816- 8 071313 and I can get you set up and that will be the same number I will use with Oregon patients as well. yeah.

Chris Langley: Well Deb,

Deborah Babbitt: Can I share

Chris Langley: Yes,

of course.

Deborah Babbitt: know

Chris Langley: Of course.

Deborah Babbitt: last question.

Chris Langley: No, please go ahead.

Deborah Babbitt: I, did a women's only group, and I asked them what recovery meant to

Chris Langley: them.

Yes. Thank you.

Deborah Babbitt: Can I share some of

Chris Langley: Of course. Please do. Please do. I'm sorry.

Deborah Babbitt: No, that's fine. But, "Recovery. Freedom to live life without being restrained by alcohol. Recovery. healing grief and trauma so that I can maintain my sobriety. Recovery. Getting back control over your own life and finding your purpose to live. Recovery means being able to walk through life sober and comfortably. Recovery. Being at peace with my life. Not feeling the urge to drink when I'm uncomfortable. Recovery. Finding the true me. Recovery. Staying away from mind altering substances. Working on my self worth. Putting sobriety first. Recovery. Being whole."

Chris Langley: i, I couldn't think of a better way to, to end this amazing conversation that we've had. thank you so much for everything that you do and for everyone at your amazing sounding service. It's been a real, privilege to talk to you today. I wish you all the very best for your move to Oregon.

That sounds very exciting and very, worthwhile. I'm sure everyone in Kansas is going to miss you, but I'm sure your family are going to be very pleased to have you back home with them. And, thank you again so much. It's been really nice meeting you today. Thanks very much indeed.

Deborah Babbitt: Thank you for letting me be here and share my thoughts.

Chris Langley: It's been a great conversation, Deb. Thank you so much.

Deborah Babbitt: Thank you.

Do, do, do, do, do.