Ep25 Addiction Treatment |Shake Up Deep Reward Based Learning

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[00:00:00] Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Chris Langley: Welcome to the Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm your host, Chris Langley, and I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest, Tommy McCann from MindShift Recovery. Tommy is a behavioral health executive and clinician in private practice.

He's over 10 years of experience working in behavioral health treatment. Tommy holds a master's degree in psychology. from William James College, Independent Clinical Licensor in Massachusetts, is a Certified Clinical Trauma Professional and a Certified Employee Assistant Professional. Tommy's career has involved providing direct clinical care to individuals with substance use disorders, providing EAP services for the state of Massachusetts, and also working in executive leadership roles in the behavioral health industry.

He's recently entered the non-profit spaces, Clinical Advisor at Mindshift Recovery,

a digital therapeutic for addiction recovery embedded within the national [00:01:00] recovery community and peer support. Welcome to Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, Tommy. It's so good to have you here today.

Tommy McCann: Hey, thank you, Chris. Thank you very much for having me. What a pleasure and a privilege.

Chris Langley: Oh, likewise, it really is. And I'm so glad we have the opportunity to talk today. So obviously you're incredibly busy gentlemen, so we're just going to dive in. So can you tell our audience about yourself and your career so far in this field?

Tommy McCann: Yes, absolutely. I've been in this field working with individuals with substance use disorders now for over 10 years and one thing I always say is it happened almost on accident about ago, I needed a job and my friend just happened to be working at a detox residential treatment facility in my neck of the woods. He said, Hey, I could get you a job. So I started doing that. I was in a peer role just through the stars aligning, incredible mentors and people in my life and I guess realizing it was something I [00:02:00] was passionate about and good or good at, ended up staying with it. there for years. Entered clinical roles, program development roles.

It's all, it's always been a series of, I consider it like beautiful accidents of people getting put in my lives and new opportunities and yeah, I transitioned to the and just started doing all these amazing things that, I'm flabbergasted when I reflect back on the journey.

Chris Langley: To just read your introduction there and what you've achieved in 10 years, that's something quite extraordinary, Tommy. That really is, and this is what this podcast is about. It's championing the work that great people like you yourself are doing. So big congratulations on that.

That's for sure. S o tell us, how did you start working at Mindshift Recovery? What was the journey towards that? Because this is a really interesting program you guys are doing.

Tommy McCann: Yes, that happened certainly by accident. So [00:03:00] because MindShift, it's about a digital therapeutic, peer support, and mindfulness training. Those are like these three core components that was developed by this gentleman named Dr. Judson Brewer. And I had known of his work years before ever meeting him. He's a world renowned neuroscientist, medical doctor. put together, it's not his own framework, but a framework with reward based learning and the neuroscience of addiction and mindfulness, this framework for behavior change. And When I ran a mindfulness based, I ran a mindfulness based relapse prevention group for years. And clients to his work.

I'd only known him as just some smart his work to clients, stuff with the default mode network and automatic pilot, and because I had also done work with a digital therapeutic company in [00:04:00] building a previous organization's peer support specialist program, because of mine who happened to work with Dr.

Judd, and I didn't know that, but when my friend was talking to me, "oh, I'm doing this this digital Would you like to, help with it?" And I was like, "absolutely." And then he said, Dr. Judd's name and I was like, "oh, I know of his work." So out of a favor, he introduced me to Dr. Judd. He's like, "Hey, I'd love you to, thank you for being a consultant on the research study. Would you want to, would you guys want to meet?" Absolutely. So after we met, Dr. Judd and some of his colleagues, they've been putting together, brainstorming a new non-profit that became MindShift Recovery.

[00:05:00] So his colleagues and him, they wanted to ask that I'd be a part of it too. So it was really since inception, and it happened once again, talk about by accident, just a series of fortuitous events and chance encounters, just made this all come to fruition.

Chris Langley: So you were previously working with another organization because of your experience in that you were offered this opportunity and you met this friend. Knew the doctor that you'd read about. That's wow.

Tommy McCann: Isn't that interesting?

Chris Langley: I hate to use the word, but talk about fate. That's, something else, isn't it?

That's incredible. Wow. So tell us what makes MindShift Recovery different from the other available apps or online courses.

Tommy McCann: Great question. like online courses, because MindShift Recovery is centered around this digital [00:06:00] therapeutic, a mobile app, but it's not just in that category of a great mobile app that promotes recovery and wellness or mindfulness or things or whatnot.

What the app does is called Mindfulness Training for Reward Based Learning, which we call the MindShift Method, which has He's used this model in other apps. One was called, is called, "Unwinding Anxiety," which uses the same framework for anxiety and the research on that showed it had me in the anxiety, which is this in this kind of flipped classroom model, training for smoking cessation, and the research found it was five times more effective than [00:07:00] the standard, prescribed for eating to help curb, cravings highly effective. So the digital therapeutic itself just acts as this mechanism to mindfulness training for reward based learning through an also is the peer community and some of these other things. But specifically what initially really drew me to the work that Dr. Jud and his team, is when I first heard of him, call or I I was younger and dumber than I am now. But I figured, hey, this is another great, [00:08:00] professional in the field, disseminating the beauty of support people in recovery, which is incredible.

I've integrated mindfulness in my practice, but that's all I thought he was doing, just pioneering the science. But as I learned more, read deeper into his research and his work, I had this "aha moment" of what he was talking which is essentially hacking the brain's reward system. Which is very, which is an interesting way to look at it. All the other psychosocial treatments for ones, say there's, five evidence based practices for treating addiction as described by the National Institute of Drug Abuse. The first one, [00:09:00] and it's not in order of effectiveness, approaches medically assisted treatments. Then we have cognitive and behavioral therapies. Then we have motivational interviewing and motivational enhancement which a lot of individuals might not know is an actual manualized clinical curriculum used for but it capitalizes on the effectiveness And then we have contingency management, which utilizes, behavior reinforcement and is really now being brought back up for treating stimulant use [00:10:00] in decades. All of those ones I've mentioned have been out for a long time, and they're all amazing. They're all great and serve a wonderful purpose. But when it comes to cravings themselves, cravings are the most, as Nora Volkow from the National Institute of Drug Abuse calls it, the most pernicious aspect of addiction is how powerful a craving can be. And naturally when it comes to a client, if a client has a return to use, step were they able to effectively get through the craving or not?

That's that final, thing. And there has been, understandably, just given lack of the neuroscience behind it, but this cognitive control paradigm of playing when you have a craving, playing the tape out, coping with it [00:11:00] in relapse prevention strategies, riding the wave, of course. But the way the brain is designed and hardwired is that we're not supposed to be The brain isn't designed that way. It's this deeper understanding of the neurobiological mechanisms behind reward based learning and cravings. For example, I think there's a misconception as to what dopamine is.

Dopamine isn't just this reward neurotransmitter, reward chemical that makes you feel good when you do something that you value as pleasant. It's much deeper than that. It's in place to hardwire the brain to have this motivational drive, something that we may perceive is, helpful [00:12:00] to our survival.

The brain is hardwired to repeat life sustaining events. And over time with using substance use, there's the, with using substances, there's the switch where doesn't get released after the substance has been used. That happened, when the substance and alcohol use was good, maybe in high but because of reward based learning Pavlov's Canary and associative learning, all the environmental cues, people, places, things, negative affective states, stress, anxiety, depression, all of these have become paired with the substances. So now what ends up happening is dopamine starts getting released when we're feeling, experiencing these environmental cues or [00:13:00] negative affective states.

So the dopamine becomes a drive, a reminder, "hey, it's time to get the substance." And that's this interesting thing where it's this anticipatory thing. So it's not about chasing the dopamine high. It's dopamine is now being set off to tell the individual. We need to get this motivational drive going to get the substance. And that's at the deepest part of our brain, the of our brain. Not this prefrontal cortex that is taken to fight off craving. You can't outthink hunger. You can't be like, no, let me make this hunger go away. It's just, it's not supposed to happen.

So what happens when clients have a craving and they can't get through it? Cause they, they've tried to control it, and they have a return to use or slip. It, it decreases this, [00:14:00] this feeling of failure, abstinence violation effect, so on and so forth. But I found that when even introducing what we're talking about now to clients, they have this like sigh of relief.

They're like, "Oh, so there's do not want to use, as much as I know I'm having the craving, and I'm trying to fight it off, There's a reason why I'm unable to." So yes, as the literature, science and all of that shows the really governs impulse control and self regulation and proper planning is taken offline. In two ways, there's the metabolic, changes that just happen through ongoing use. Then also in the body stress, the stress response deactivates that part to our brain. So this work, short story Judd Work is about [00:15:00] taking a different approach to these cravings. As it turns out, mindfulness, these two components to mindfulness, mindful awareness. to it and this other component is mindful curiosity. Wonder, awe, all of that, but we'll call it just curiosity. Mindful us to fall in to the, say you're having a craving, you can fall into this craving. Physically, experiencing the physical we talk about that's in our, digital therapeutic, it decouples this associative link between [00:16:00] the states and all these things. It decouples that it. Not just the thought of a substance, but "what am I feeling?" We update the reward value. That's this key point is using mindful awareness to update the reward value of the substance.

Because as we know, clients know it, the substance or alcohol is no longer rewarding. It's no it used to do and potentially used function to the dysfunction. Drugs and alcohol work for some people for a period of time, as a way to cope as a way to just survive. But it's no longer effective. But the brain has still has this reward value assigned to it, this high one. So through this experience or this It's called The Gears and hopefully I'll be able to Falling into it up, we update the reward value being like, [00:17:00] "no, this isn't what it used to be." All of that.

So that's one part to it. And then mindful curiosity allows us to not reinforce this habit or reward based learning thing. So say, there's Stress, happens. Somebody uses as a result and always has. So response. You use, the stress goes away. The necessary to the survival. So it's the reward, but something interesting, and this is really the brain hack that caught my eye regardless of how we respond, say we respond to that craving with a different, maybe healthy behavior. That's good because it means we're not using the substance.

However, it's still giving life to [00:18:00] if through mindful curiosity, not engaging in these external new responses to a craving, and by mindful curiosity, it's about stepping back and being like, "Oh, what am I getting from this?

What is this takes the breath out of craving. So it starts the power of cravings just starts going down on its own. Almost to me, it's like ending cravings, not just coping, but ending and weakening those links between a trigger and the brain sees as rewarding. A thirst for information, the quest for information the brain sees as rewarding. I hope that, that's a little bit about what makes Mindshift different [00:19:00] perhaps.

Chris Langley: That's one heck of a description Tommy . I've, been doing these podcasts for quite a while and I don't think I've ever had quite a thorough description of addiction as what you're, that was absolutely wonderful to hear. I'm sure people listen to this podcast, is gripped with every word you were just speaking. Um,

you touched on something earlier, the Three Gears. Can we just go through those? Just tell our audience about that. That'd be wonderful.

Tommy McCann: the three I explained is like the complicated, the part that really interests me, but that doesn't I was talking to, I just mentioned. Yeah, that's interesting. It sounds cool. But more importantly, it's like, all right, how do you actually use this for, how can people use this to help them?

How can you convey this to a client to where it helps them? So it's because this is actually so simple, Dr Jud and over the years developed this idea of calling it the [00:20:00] Three Gears approach. So it's habit mapping, disenchantment and finding the bigger, better offer. Just these three things. So habit mapping is about understanding and triggers and how you engage in and what the reward is. A lot of times the reward is that really drives motivation and stimulus So it's habit because it's been done with cigarettes, eating, anxiety, because anxiety, that response to perseverative thinking, and can be a habit also.

So that's why this has really been big with anxiety, is there's more to habit loop of, I'm feeling anxious, let me [00:21:00] engage in mental, imaginary problem solving, in an attempt to solve a problem that hasn't occurred yet. Because it can be done for any gear is just habit mapping, your own reward based learning loops. So that's that first part, bringing awareness to that. The second gear is that disenchantment, becoming disenchanted with the experience. Falling, that's bringing that mindfulness into your physical sensations, all these learned associations and highly charged memories that go along with the craving. Because again, craving, it's not just for the substance, it's craving can this emotionally charged memory of stress, time, place, guilt, everything all wrapped into this [00:22:00] and tightness in the chest, foot tapping, feeling it in the back of your throat, all of these physical sensations that's held in view is there's a lot of van der Kolk, "The Body Keeps the Score," where he talks about how different parts of the brain get shut off. So naturally, it's the emotional or emotional brain and physical sensations that can really take over because cognitive control is not really possible.

So I see so many great correlations. So

Chris Langley: Wow.

Tommy McCann: So there's that. Then the 3rd gear is that bigger, better offer of responding not just bizarre. It can be easy when I talk never want to come off as, just talking about the beauty of mindfulness.

[00:23:00] Yes. Mindfulness is incredible. It's played a major role in my health and wellness, but this is utilizing it to hack the brain's reward system, to jump right into the very brain circuitry that's created and sustained addictive behaviors, to jump right in there and shake up the system. So that's the gears.

These,

Chris Langley: Yeah,

Tommy McCann: These three simple things.

Chris Langley: That makes complete sense to me. It really does. Very a real formula there. I completely understand everything you just said. I also saw the Mindshift Recovery has weekly online meetings. Tommy, can you explain this and tell our audience how many people attend these online meetings and what's involved?

Cause this is, another additional support mechanism that you're, adding to this, which I loved.

Tommy McCann: Yes, I'm glad you're bringing those up where, because of course, aside from how great any model can [00:24:00] be or evidence based approach, recovery from substance use, depends on social support, social engagement, all of that recovery support services. So the digital therapeutic initially is about teaching what the practice that I was just going over.

But, of course, there needs to be this recovery community recovery supports and other ways or. are more experiential ways to practice these mindfulness techniques and learning more. So we have our weekly national recovery call. Thursdays at noon, and I can send you the link and maybe we can post it up somewhere

Chris Langley: course. Yeah.

Tommy McCann: That's a virtual call, like a drop in call.

Sometimes we have anywhere from 10 to 15 people. And we just started these so it's picking up.

Chris Langley: Nice.

Tommy McCann: The way that is run, it's , [00:25:00] with a mindfulness trainer. But it's still in this peer based format, open, format, people can come or, you don't have to sign up or whatnot. So people can, you can come and it's experientially practicing or discussing this. So somebody can come and then they can they're either they're just any craving they've experienced in the past and then through mindfulness based or mindful inquiry, really looking into this and how dropping into the experience does, does all these kinds of things.

So it's more we also have these closed eight week courses, which people sign up for. calls [00:26:00] now, the eight week courses are free, but those get filled up and we're just starting it.

So things might have to get modified,

Chris Langley: Of course.

Tommy McCann: those are run by Mary Beth and Dan, two members facilitator and trainer to practice, when you're trying to help others with training

a group using different thing than facilitating other kind of groups. So they facilitate those in these closed 8 week courses. I think the last 1 we had 25 people and those are live. So we're gonna be doing more of those as we bring on more has this recovery community component to it. [00:27:00] free. it's on we'll have iOS version, whatever that, yeah, the actual app will be out live early next year. So we're a recovery community that, and this is important,

there's so many mutual self help groups out there that are absolutely incredible. to say, "Oh, this, what we do is better or different." It's no, it doesn't matter if you if it's Natural Recovery, SMART Recovery, harm reduction it doesn't matter where else you go.

You don't need to go anywhere else for your what stage one amazing help people [00:28:00] overcome, whatever problems, addictive behaviors they have.

Chris Langley: Yes. so what addictions have you found this to be most beneficial to help? And have there been any surprises along the way at what you found them to, this, to be so effective for?

Tommy McCann: Well, first, was born out of any, as I mentioned, like anything to do with reward based are formed. Originally, I don't know which one was first, but one of the first times this model was used and studied was for cravings for cigarettes. I forget how many years ago that was.

That was, one. And then, so then you got that, you got eating. We got and now seeing anxiety and when you look at anxiety from that lens of a habit. So the fact that it's not even specific to substance or alcohol use disorders, [00:29:00] to me, is this interesting thing where it's right now we're doing the major research on using mindfulness training for reward based learning, aka substance and alcohol use disorders. advances and understanding of the brain and mindfulness and habits and behavior change. So it was born from this higher thing. So now it's getting, we're narrowing it down now to substance use. And to me that's unique. And I never thought about it like that, only now that you asked the question. Where this whole model wasn't proposed or put team for addiction or drugs and alcohol. So it came from something higher and now it's just oh, wow, reinforced. stop my [00:30:00] nicotine vaping. I've used it, and I had to give it a shot because I'm the Clinical Advisor.

So it's oh, I gotta, I need to quit vaping. Time to put my money where my mouth Mindshifts' money where their mouth is. And really, draw upon this model. exceedingly worked. When I was using it to quit vaping, I realized during that second gear thing that I was talking about, dropping into the experience, that the cravings I was having when I was quitting vaping, the physical sensations, the physical, was my arms. Because if you know anybody that vapes, you're always the always trying to grab it. Where is it? Checking your pockets. So that is what was making it so hard for me. And I didn't know until really dropping into the [00:31:00] physical sensations and where the craving was coming from.

And I was noticing, "oh, it's feeling tense and right here under my chin, and I just want to keep moving." I was like I had restless arms just because my arms are so used to wanting to grab the vape and doing that and then just doing this, that whole thing with curiosity and interest for some reason weakened the craving and behavior of vaping.

It just weakened it and it was exceedingly easier than typically to quit vaping. So it sounds like anything that becomes is a reinforced behavior This can help with

Chris Langley: firstly, congratulations on quitting vaping.

Tommy McCann: thank you.

Chris Langley: That's a big one. That's a big one. I smoked for many years and 10 years ago, I had to quit and my goodness, it's not easy. That's for [00:32:00] sure. I'd just like to ask you, Tommy, do you, work with other external agencies in the community or around the country at all?

You partnering with anyone at all?

Tommy McCann: That's our Yes, we're in the early stages of that. We've partnered with a few states . doing that. But of and really get out there this even saying "our services" I don't even like

together something so fabulous.

we want to partner with partnerships we have in the, I think pipeline that, [00:33:00] we'd be coming out, coming out with yet.

But we do have a partnership with a few different places. Yes.

Chris Langley: Excellent, excellent stuff. it sounds like you've got some really big plans to really push this. It's just incredible hearing you talk today. It really is. I just like to move on Tommy because when we first met, when we first met for our pre-podcast call, you told me about recovery friendly workplaces, which is something as a Brit I'd never heard of.

Can you go into some detail about these about how they help those need an expert help with their addictions and what's your role in this? Because it's fascinating.

Tommy McCann: Recovery friendly workplaces are unbelievable, and I have limited. limited experience with recovery friendly workplaces, but it came up so organically when you and I had first met and we're talking and so [00:34:00] the idea of a recovery friendly workplace initiative.

They tend to be statewide and it was New Hampshire that did it. It was years ago. I don't want to say exactly how long, but maybe five to 10 years ago by, I think, Governor Sununu, he started it. It's so innovative and forward thinking. And the whole thing is realizing that workplaces, organizations, in America spend at least half their waking life at their company, with their company, interacting with a all companies experienced significant, loss of [00:35:00] money, productivity, all of that due to the effects of addiction. But even take that negative part out of it, it's just organizations can be such, a form of recovery capital for individuals in recovery or needing recovery. In the recovery friendly workplace initiative, it's about companies declaring, they're making this, lofty, but we're "recovery friendly." We understand where we're able to support Maybe needing help and support, whether it's through organizational trainings and all of that, but through policies, paid leave support with recovery, communities, treatment centers, and the benefits, organizational benefits. So it's this attitudinal organizational and also policy way of supporting people in [00:36:00] recovery and recognizing number one, that people in recovery are excellent employees. There's no difference. Some would say they're even better than other ones, but that addiction is real, but people in the strength And also I see it on this She did your podcast on a recovery oriented systems of care. She's a colleague of mine. Shout out to her and how she was talking about recovery oriented system of care, right? Which is bringing the helper and the client out of this one on one kind of episodic treatment role into this system of care. And then in my, how I conceptualize it to me, recovery friendly workplaces in these further almost or [00:37:00] evolve this whole thing to then creating almost this recovery oriented bringing recovery much more, visible. And it's it's fabulous.

And New Hampshire has states have one. Massachusetts, I believe it's just Hamden County that they have their recovery friendly workplace. But what it is, it's a So companies, hey,

we're, a recovery friendly workplace.

Chris Langley: I

Tommy McCann: this, we support this, if you need help, we got you.

And I really saw it from my work as an employee assistance professional, for the state where I got to see how I worked with a lot of unions, and I got to see how powerful organizations and unions are in terms of their, the support they offer. The fact [00:38:00] if companies align with employees. Just say, I would see so much in my work, the ability for clients to get better is a million fold, and I'm making up that statistic a million fold, but it was the main, it was such a piece, not just recovery capital, but a protective factor. Say, when I've worked at treatment facilities, if a client is uncertain about their job status, "does my job know? Is my job covered? I don't know what to do." That's that prevents them from really being able to engage in their own treatment, but knowing they have the support and encouragement of their employer, it is an absolute game changer.

Chris Langley: I mean, that's huge for anyone in work. And it also acknowledges that finally addiction is being treated as a health issue. And not as a criminal one. Which I think is [00:39:00] incredibly progressive. I don't even think we have this in the United Kingdom. So when we first met and you told me about this, it really took to me.

I was like, this is really interesting. And it's, so refreshing to hear this because it seems such a rarity that this is an opportunity for people people to get support for their employee, which doesn't often happen, sadly. We're just going to move on a little bit about your state before we, end today's podcast, Tommy. Obviously the United States and sadly now the rest of the world is going through some massive opioid crisis, which is just seems to have been allowed somehow.

So how's this, how's your state addressing this issue? Are they doing much harm reduction or, what, are they doing?

Tommy McCann: I believe we are. And it was only when we had briefly talked about this, before where I realized I had [00:40:00] was only familiar with how I was only looking at it through only Massachusetts. So I was like, oh, Mass we hear some of the issues that Mass has. But then I was like, hold on, let me look at it from a nation and how Massachusetts is.

And I had this flip of a switch where I believe as things, with where they are in fighting, say, the, opiate epidemic. We have, say, Boston Medical Center, they which is research for, addiction. We have so many advocacy freely in a good way, treatment, recovery, support services. Actually, There's a lot of grassroots organizations in Massachusetts. [00:41:00] to say are biased because that's just me being selfish, where I would love to see easier access to treatment for some, or more support for a particular populations and subcultures/ given from what I've been how I see in other states, I know other states, some people just really don't have access to any treatment, where in Massachusetts there's a lot of treatment out there. There's still a ways to go, but I'm I'm proud to be a part of the, substance use treatment landscape in Massachusetts, and I thank you for that because when we first talked and being selfish of things I wish could change in Mass, a really good job.

But granted, we have, there's been the national documentaries on [00:42:00] there's a place up in Boston called Mass Ave, which is, if you go up there, it's tragic and heart wrenching to see just this street in Boston. It used to have the name Methadone Mile, and it's just suffering, just suffering there, but I know that there's a lot They're offering support to them and services that they may need.

Chris Langley: No, that's wonderful to hear you speak so positively because so many states I talked to, I'm in Iowa here and it's minimal. It seems to me personally, it's a minimal effort. And for what you describe, Massachusetts is, they're not running away from this problem. They're trying to at least address it and just lock people up as they seem to be doing everywhere else.

So that's wonderful to hear. Thank you very much for explaining that. Last couple of questions, because I ask all my [00:43:00] guests this question, Tommy, because I get some very interesting and varied answers, but can you tell me your opinion of what harm reduction is and how it can play such a pivotal role within recovery?

Tommy McCann: Fabulous. And I certainly can see why you get varied responses there. There can be seen as this adversarial harm reduction versus treatment or and that's I'd say sociologically that's going to happen when you have any two different that's normal. My view or a harm reduction is an incredible public health approach that reduces and prevents overdoses, reduces the spread of communicable diseases, helps keep people alive and supports their own health approach. So I think where some of these, some people that have these adversarial attitudes between [00:44:00] public health and substance use, I think it's when maybe the lines get blurred one's a public and harm, reduction is a brilliant job where I think reminding all professionals that it's about the client. Regardless where say, for me, as a clinician, you always meet the client where they are. If I have a client, and they don't want to stop using, I'm going to support them to make sure that they have access to, overdose reversal kits and safe, what the client wants, their for me to decide. I'm not the expert. The client is the expert in themselves. And I think that has, sometimes can be forgotten about in the treatment [00:45:00] world. And perhaps that harm reduction, the reminder that it's always about the client, I think is exceedingly helpful. But, no, there's no but.

I where they're at. Absolutely. Clinicians were trained in that. We bet are supposed to be there's multiple pathways for recovery. That's a fact without question. some people, especially the further you get on the continuum of substance use disorders.

If you're past 6 criteria, and it's severe, that tends to be how we conceptualize the brain disease of addiction. But There's many different paths to recovery and substance use to dictate which one people there needn't be this, war between harm reduction and align, at least in my [00:46:00] understanding, and I think sometimes a lot of us, and we're passionate in a way where I think accidentally, become a voice for something that they don't need to be a voice for. So that's, my views.

Chris Langley: That's perfect. Thank you very much for that, Tommy. Last question, or second to last question, do you have a message for anyone listening to this podcast who is going through addiction?

Tommy McCann: that there are people that want to truly help that want you to know that you are, that want you to feel safe, secure, understood, and valued. That there are want you to [00:47:00] feel that. And happens when if you're struggling, you reach out for help to somebody like that and you receive that help.

Something happens. It's this internal shift. Some say maybe hopes being conveyed or something, but there is a way to feel safe, secure, understood, and to have hope for the future, and it involves asking for help. I suppose that would be what comes to mind.

Chris Langley: That was beautiful. That really was. Thank you for that. Last question. Can you tell our listeners how to best to contact you and to find Mindshift Recovery online, please?

Tommy McCann: Yes, our website is mindshiftrecovery.org and on there you'll see the link for our free web version [00:48:00] of the app. email is thomas@mindshiftrecovery.org. If anybody goes to the website, you'll be able to get all information and contact me or any of the other team members.

We have our marketing arm, research arm, arm, mindfulness arm. We have, a great team that we've put together. Jose, Mary Beth, Dan, Rhetta, Josh Amy. We have a great team. Brianna and we've brought some new members on also. So definitely check out the website.

Make it easy.

Chris Langley: Tommy, it's been a real pleasure and a privilege to speak to you today and to hear the amazing work that you and the rest of your team are doing, because what you're what you put together, it's just been clicking with me all [00:49:00] the way through this interview. And I've, I highly recommend anyone go and check it out.

I really do. And thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Tommy McCann: Thank you so much, Chris. That means a lot. It's been a pleasure and a privilege and I hope I get to maybe come on here again someday soon.

Chris Langley: Oh, definitely. Cause you've got some big plans and I want to keep track of this because this is, definitely going to go big in the recovery space. So big congratulations to you all.

Tommy McCann: All right. Thank you, Chris.

Do, do, do, do, do.