Ep14 Addiction Treatment Trans & LGBTQ+ Gus Raymond (He/Him)

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[00:00:02] Chris Langley: Welcome to the Addiction Recovery Place, the podcast championing addiction treatment specialist around the world. I'm very, pleased to introduce today's guest Gus Raymond. Gus is the Presenter, clinician, Consultant and Founder of A. Raymond Clinical and Consulting, which is located here in beautiful Iowa.

Gus is an Associate Mental Health Counselor, Certified Alcohol and Drug Counselor and National Certified Counselor. He's a speaker and consultant for Trans and LGBTQIA2S+ He believes that self care is activism. He also dedicates his time to helping others through activism by being a NALGAP board member, which is the Association of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Addiction Professionals.

And their allies, NAADAC, and he's a committee member, which is the Association for Addiction Professionals. He's also the NBCC Foundation Advisory Council and Mentor, which is the National Board of Certified Counsellors. The GLSEN Education Advisory Council member, which is a group that works to ensure that LGBTQ students are able to learn and grow in a school environment free from bullying and harassment.

A very warm welcome to the Addiction Recovery Podcast, Gus. Thanks for being here.

[00:01:19] Gus Raymond: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it. It's great to be here.

[00:01:21] Chris Langley: It's wonderful. Before we start, Gus, I'd just like to take a quote that I took from your website that really, struck with me says, "in our world, divide and conquer must become define and empower." I thought that was a really powerful quote. And I think that's very, true to to what you're all about, Gus.

I just got to kick straight off because I know you're incredibly busy, especially given what I've just read out. Tell us a bit about yourself and the journey to becoming a counsellor for people experiencing addictions and for mental health.

[00:01:54] Gus Raymond: So strangely enough, this is a second career for me. I started out working in catering and food service. My entire first half of my life revolved around food service. And in a strange way, when you work in, especially the back of the house portion of food service, you kind of function as a little bit of a miniature therapist in a way.

Everybody gets their own function, right? And that was my natural function, as my position. Instead of one thing or another thing or just functioning as a Chef, I functioned as a liaison. I was the peacemaker. I was the person that brought things together. And so we created positions for me that didn't exist prior.

And one thing led to another. And, people kept telling me that I'd be great at this. And I kept saying I wanted nothing to do with it, and the universe kept talking. And so when opportunities arose, for me to go back to school, I pursued it and here I am.

[00:03:06] Chris Langley: Goodness me. So you went from working as a in the catering department to now doing the great work that you're doing. So how long did that take you Gus to go from working in the catering to now where you are as a counsellor?

[00:03:21] Gus Raymond: So I didn't begin this career until probably actually right about the time that I began transition around 40. That's when my life did a complete pivot

in a whole bunch of ways.

And that's when I also went back to college in earnest and was able to finally stably do. That was not something I had ever been able to accomplish before for various reasons. And this time around, I was able to do so because I was finally stably me. And so it's been an, it's been a journey of about the last 10 years or so.

[00:04:01] Chris Langley: Wow. fair, play to you. that's incredible, Gus. That really is. So what are some of the services that your practice in Iowa specializes in?

[00:04:11] Gus Raymond: That's probably a good segue into, I really focus primarily on Trans and LGBTQ

and other marginalized folks. As a trans clinician myself, that's a huge priority to me,

especially living in this area. There aren't a lot of us, clinician wise, there are next to none, especially on the more rural end of the state. And there are a surprising number of LGBTQ+ individuals in the state looking for clinicians that understand them, that welcome them, that will help them and treat them. And that's very, difficult to find here. It's very difficult to find anywhere.

Outside of really. specialized urban areas,

but specifically in rural places, that's hard to do.

And knowing myself how difficult it is to access care in all aspects of behavioral health and health care, I, made it a priority to make sure that I'm offering services to folks that need it.

[00:05:20] Chris Langley: Yep. Wonderful. Wonderful stuff. So Gus, tell us about your consultation service to ensure that companies have an effective policy that is inclusive for the LGBQT+ community.

[00:05:33] Gus Raymond: Having worked in the industry as a clinician and having been a client as well, and again, this, isn't just for behavioral health, it's also for health care. It is imperative that we educate agencies, clinics, businesses, corporations, and the entities that own these places, how to appropriately care for and offer services to LGBTQ+ individuals, especially when we add in layers of intersectionality, right? We have a lot of diversity that's entering the state. This is not. The Iowa of 30 years ago anymore. There are a lot of industries that are bringing in a lot of folks from overseas and the demographics here are changing, and we need to change with it. And so my services offer a variety of trainings and workshops that I tailored to your specific circumstances.

So this isn't a one size fits all here, go read a book kind of training. I really work on making sure that I understand the unique circumstances of what you are offering and the demographics of who you are, as well as who you're serving. And as I have always done in my life, I, work to try and become the liaison between those two concepts, right?

It's my job to figure out how to translate both things and help them work together. It's not just shove this down somebody's throat or figure out how to fit this, square thing into that round hole. That's not how this works. It will never work that way.

So I really tailor things to the specific organization and

[00:07:15] Chris Langley: so what are the challenges, some of the challenges that the trans community faces when trying to access the right care that they need for addictions or healthcare, Gus?

[00:07:25] Gus Raymond: I usually answer that with a little bit of my own personal stuff, right?

Because it's easier to get people to understand through that lens. For the first several years of my transition, just to give you a healthcare side of it,

I had to drive almost three hours away to access medical care.

[00:07:46] Chris Langley: wow, okay,

[00:07:49] Gus Raymond: Yep.

[00:07:50] Chris Langley: okay,

[00:07:51] Gus Raymond: Just to give you an idea, right? And, part of that is icky,

right? And part of that is we don't have those people here. I'm literally right here. I'm, asking you and you're telling me I don't exist. So that's it's those natural barriers that happen right off the bat. And then when you do, if you do finally get in the door, there's a lot of discrimination, there's a lot of misunderstanding, there's a lot of stereotypes and myths that we have to get through before we ever get to the human being standing there. And that's before we ever get to the actual issue. That you're suffering from,

whether it's a medical issue, or an addiction issue, or a mental health

issue, or a combination thereof,

which is usually the case.

[00:08:44] Chris Langley: Yeah, you're done. Yep, Goodness me. So you had to travel three hours just to go and see a professional?

[00:08:53] Gus Raymond: Yes,

I did.

[00:08:55] Chris Langley: That is incredible.

[00:08:57] Gus Raymond: And

interestingly enough, even just for things like hormone replacement, right? Plenty of cisgender men struggle with testosterone level decreasing

as they age, right? Should be a fairly simple concept to deal with. And as a matter of fact, just about any of them could walk into the very same local doctor's office and get a prescription

like that. I cannot. And I could not. Now things have changed. We have a local doctor that is fantastic and specializes in such care.

But prior to that. No one would see me. "We don't do that here. We don't treat people here for that." And the underlying message is we don't treat people like you

here.

[00:09:45] Chris Langley: I couldn't even imagine facing that, Gus. I really couldn't. So luckily there was a doctor that came to Iowa that was able to give you the care that you need and deserve. How long did that take? From, doing your three hour journeys to when this doctor came to Iowa.

[00:10:06] Gus Raymond: I spent several years, driving down to the Des Moines area to a specialty clinic before I was able to. And a lot of my normal preventative care that people would go see, I learned very quickly not to subject myself to local health care.

[00:10:22] Chris Langley: Yep.

[00:10:23] Gus Raymond: because. I'm not driving three hours away to go do such a thing, right?

Unless I'm really ill, in which case I'm not driving three hours away,

right? I just skipped healthcare.

[00:10:38] Chris Langley: Yeah. That must have had ramifications for your health in general as well because you're avoiding just seeing the doctor anyway where you, that shouldn't have happened. I'm, I really appreciate you saying, you, you, telling us that Gus. That's really important information.

I think a lot of people need to be aware of this. So what are the challenges, some of the challenges, challenges that you've faced as a counsellor Gus in your career?

[00:11:05] Gus Raymond: Both on the clinician side and on behalf of my clients, I think we really struggle with, again, facing the myths versus the truth, right? Facing the stereotypes versus actual solid evidence based information. Facing the idea that we don't, have those people here. So why do we need to learn these things? Even as a clinician working in an environment, the people around me are telling me we don't have those people here, so why do we need to learn this? I'm literally right here. What do you mean you don't have those people here? I work with you,

[00:11:44] Chris Langley: Yes.

[00:11:45] Gus Raymond: and I'm telling you this is a struggle for me as a colleague, so I can't imagine The clientele, the majority of you pass toward me because you don't know what to do with them and you're telling me don't exist. I can't imagine how they are feeling, right? And so they have to go into these A. E. meetings or other 12 step meetings or other group meetings and they have a choice. They can either out themselves if they have a way to even hide who they are, right? And face potential discrimination, if not worse, within that group setting while they're trying to work on their recovery, or they can live in the closet and pretend that they aren't who they are, and they can hide in the shadows while they deal with their recovery issues, which creates further stress and strain and completely violates all the things in recovery that we talk about doing being honest, right?

Being open about who we are telling all of our truths. But then we set them up for failure by making them hide pieces of who they are and not accepting them as they are.

[00:12:56] Chris Langley: Yes.

[00:12:57] Gus Raymond: How is that going to work?

[00:13:00] Chris Langley: It just can't basically can it really it's just another barrier to access basic health care and support that you need. I, couldn't imagine. I really couldn't imagine Gus and just moving on a little bit about by yourself and your, your work, the great work that you do. You're a very active speaker around the United States.

Can you tell us about some of the topics that you've discussed at events this year? And what future events will you be doing in 2024?

[00:13:32] Gus Raymond: I talk a lot about, I talk a lot about this. I

talk a lot about counselor ethics. as it relates to, specifically Trans and LGBTQ care, right? One of my latest topics has been reminding us that our first priority is to do no harm. And if we're faced with an individual, such as someone from the LGBTQ community, that simply their, who they are makes us feel uncomfortable. As a clinician, that's not a referral reason. That's a, you need to do some work issue. That's not a get rid of the client issue, and as a human, and as an LGBTQ individual, I am not a specialty. I'm a human,

[00:14:27] Chris Langley: Yep.

[00:14:29] Gus Raymond: and I needed to be

treated as such. I would appreciate you learning something about my community and my culture, and I would appreciate you learning about me as a human, but you don't also need to know everything there is to know about the gay community in order to understand how to treat me.

[00:14:46] Chris Langley: That's right. Yeah.

[00:14:48] Gus Raymond: lot of conversations about that. I do a lot of dispelling of myths and reminding people that they can't just kick us to the curb because we violate some level of comfort for them. and so a lot of advocacy work there. and I also do quite a bit of information about cultural humility in general.

[00:15:11] Chris Langley: Yes.

[00:15:12] Gus Raymond: I just had a new, course drop with Mental Health Academy about cultural humility and that we might be doing it wrong,

right?

the premise of that basically is that the onus has always been taught to us through mental health counseling education that it's on you as the clinician entirely to just do your own homework,

right?

And if you just, sit in your own self awareness, all will be well. And that's, it's a little bit like the self care argument, right? If you

just go home and do yoga, everything's gonna be fine. And it discounts the entire rest of the argument and the situation that's happening.

So I do a lot of work in those areas.

[00:16:00] Chris Langley: And what, events are you doing this year Gus?

[00:16:04] Gus Raymond: The biggest one coming up for me, and the one that I'm most excited about, is later this year, I'm doing, NAADAC's Annual Conference. We've

got, I have a big presentation coming up, about trans substance care, and treating trans individuals in, substance recovery. And we are up to some shenanigans with some of the other NAADAC committees about some pre-conference work that is in the "to be determined" stage.

So more information will be coming out about that shortly.

[00:16:36] Chris Langley: That's great news. That is that's going to be a big event. And I'm sure your talk is going to be very, well received by everyone attending. So congratulations on that. That's great news.

[00:16:47] Gus Raymond: Thank you.

[00:16:48] Chris Langley: And I just like to touch on a social media post. that saw on your LinkedIn page about the American Counseling Association, Gus, in which having its conference in Orlando, Florida. When I read this, I was also pretty shocked.

the obvious lack of awareness was truly something to behold. Can you tell our audience a little bit about this and what the feedback has been like from your very well tailored and direct response?

[00:17:18] Gus Raymond: I must have rewritten that about 14 times.

[00:17:23] Chris Langley: Sure.

[00:17:23] Gus Raymond: the ACA is not a small body.

[00:17:26] Chris Langley: Yeah.

[00:17:26] Gus Raymond: And it's not a small entity and it's a little nerve wracking for a single group, especially trans, but just any individual to call out such a large entity in this way on such a public platform. I second guessed myself about a dozen times at least. And

yet,

I had checked the information several times, I went to the website, and sure enough, yep, it's, actually in Orlando. I just

couldn't believe it. And I see all these posts that, cause it's Pride Month, it's

Rainbow Month, everybody's spewing rainbows everywhere.

[00:18:14] Chris Langley: Yeah.

[00:18:14] Gus Raymond: And, that's what did it. That's what did it for me,

was the level of hypocrisy there.

[00:18:22] Chris Langley: Yeah.

[00:18:23] Gus Raymond: It felt so disingenuous. You can't sit down, care who you are, you can't sit there on one hand and say, "we got you." And on the other hand, book

the biggest national conference you have

in the middle of the most dangerous state

for the majority of us to travel in.

[00:18:47] Chris Langley: Yes. Yeah.

[00:18:48] Gus Raymond: And expect, and then, have a call for presenters

that eliminates a third of us.

And I'll tell you what's the most interesting about this whole thing is I've gotten a ton of feedback. I've gotten the most impressions that I've ever gotten for a LinkedIn post.

Have you noticed the actual analytics on the post itself?

Two reposts and four likes. No one will touch it. All kinds of private feedback.

Of course. Of course.

but no one will touch it.

[00:19:25] Chris Langley: Yeah, it was, it really was quite a, shot when, when Maggie showed me, I couldn't believe it myself, and I think your response was absolutely key. I think it really was. And the fact you've been getting private messages as well, but also the fact that.

You've not had any public response. the truth hurts, I think, as well, Gus. I think that you've really hit the nail on the head with that one. And, I, think that was a very noble thing that you did then. But it needed saying. It definitely needed saying. So, well done. I just wanted to touch on that, because it was a really big, a big deal.

And seeing that was going on in Orlando was just, It just did to me seemed very, wrong. So no, I just wanted to mention that exact that needed saying that's for sure. Gus, you're a, NAADAC member and the LGBTQIA2S+ committee member. Tell us why you joined NAADAC, and what you do for the organization.

Yes.

[00:20:33] Gus Raymond: You know, I was a member of NAADAC before I was chosen for the fellowship. In 2021, I was chosen as a Minority Fellowship Program Fellow, and that was a joint project from NADAC and NBCC. But I had already been a NAADAC member, because I was a counselor already. And what I really like about NAADAC is it doesn't feel pretentious to me. It's a little bit of kind of everything for everybody, like on every level, right? if you need this level, they'll figure it out. And if you need this level, they'll figure it out. And I just appreciate that about them. And at the time, Cynthia Moreno Tuohy was the, Excutive Director, and through my fellowship, I became really close to Cyn.

She was always really available to all of us fellows. as an, as a director, she was amazingly available and all over the place, and she, to this day, is someone I would call a friend, and an amazing human. And I think it's that relationship combined with the resources that NAADAC has provided and the responsiveness. That they have always given, on every level and the willingness they have to learn. My fellowship experience as a trans person had some bumps.

[00:22:01] Chris Langley: Sure. Okay,

[00:22:03] Gus Raymond: I'm used to this as a trans person, like

everything has some bumps. But what I really appreciated the most was their willingness to hear that, and then immediately pivot and begin to learn

and then to continue coming back and saying without putting the onus on me right to continue coming back for more of a consultant rather than a burden,

right?

and not just me, but others and to constantly be willing to learn and do better and expand on their, efforts. And it's just been tremendous and. I, that's why I go back

every time, every year.

[00:22:47] Chris Langley: Yep. Yep.

[00:22:48] Gus Raymond: They're amazing.

[00:22:49] Chris Langley: They are a great organization. They really are. Moving on about your private practice, and you do exceptional work with young people, Gus, in the community. Since you started your practice, have you noticed any changes in drug use and the risks, and the new drugs are now posing them, especially with fentanyl, that seems to be sweeping the country and the rest of the world, it seems, now.

.

[00:23:15] Gus Raymond: You know, luckily these, smaller rural areas, while we do see the occasional, almost drive by incident of fentanyl, as we are more of a corridor than we are a stop.

So to speak, right?

[00:23:31] Chris Langley: yeah,

[00:23:32] Gus Raymond: and so occasionally something will fall off the wagon

on its way, and so you'll see it, in a bust, on some of the corridors here, but we don't really get a lot of it landing here, which is good.

But, what we are seeing with a lot of our youth is an astounding amount of cannabis use and THC use in the vape pens.

[00:23:57] Chris Langley: Oh, gosh.

[00:23:58] Gus Raymond: And, I mean astounding.

[00:24:00] Chris Langley: Okay.

[00:24:02] Gus Raymond: and, as young as 10, 11, 12 years old,

[00:24:05] Chris Langley: Yep. Yep.

[00:24:07] Gus Raymond: Everybody's got a vape. And at least half of them are THC pens, and they think they're smoking, Woodstock weed, from granddad's backyard,

and they're

smoking like, 90 percent THC from dispensaries that's gonna knock your socks off.

We've had so many kids that end up taking just one hit and drop.

[00:24:38] Chris Langley: Yeah.

[00:24:38] Gus Raymond: and need emergency services

because they have no idea what they're putting in their bodies.

[00:24:43] Chris Langley: You're seeing children as young as 10, 11, getting hold of these vapes and, oh, wow, that's, that, that's something, because obviously Iowa, where it's situated, we've got Minnesota, Illinois, and now Missouri, and we've only got Nebraska to go now, I think, until we're completely circled with, recreational, marijuana, that, that's, incredibly sad to hear that's, having such a knock on effects, especially with children.

I myself am not a proponent for, keeping it illegal, but there has to be some sort of control over this around, around, and the vaping is certainly a major problem.

[00:25:26] Gus Raymond: Enormous.

[00:25:27] Chris Langley: That's for sure. with Amnesty International speaking out this week about recommending a harm reduction approach to all drug use, this happened on Monday and moving away from criminalizing all drug users and drug use.

What's your opinion? What is your opinion of harm reduction Gus? Because I'm, I get it, I'm doing these podcasts. I get different views on. Harm reduction is the question I ask everyone. So what's your view on harm reduction? What it is to

[00:25:52] Gus Raymond: I can't believe we haven't utilized harm

reduction more and more universally. I don't know. I, it doesn't make sense to me why this wasn't adopted a long time ago. As the way to go. The old school method of all or nothing, black or white. That it's a cognitive distortion. What are we doing? We're teaching people the very kind of thinking that we try to teach people not to do that doesn't even make sense.

[00:26:22] Chris Langley: Yes.

[00:26:24] Gus Raymond: And, it's unrealistic. And it has been proven unrealistic in every way. Dozens of ways that you can't just go from 60 to 0, It just doesn't work, and you can't completely take people, especially when we start adding on the intersectionality layers, right?

Totally 100 percent out of this element because what's at the root of most addiction? Trauma,

[00:26:51] Chris Langley: Yep.

[00:26:52] Gus Raymond: right?

[00:26:53] Chris Langley: Yep.

[00:26:53] Gus Raymond: And so you take them out of these feeling seemingly supportive, elements with people that feel like adopted family, or in some cases, family, right? And we want to completely remove them from all those people and all those places and all those things and cut everything off.

But we don't do a very good job of replacing them, and giving them alternate forms of support and 30 day insurance paid treatment is not going to cut it. There needs to be some middle ground here. With harm reduction, you all but eliminate the concept of shame that goes heavily along with recovery, especially 12 step recovery, right? There's that idea of, if you just said no. If you just made a better decision. If you just followed the steps. It, the blame always goes on the person

instead of really teaching them the concept of, look, let's just step you down. Let's just work on this. You can back it off and look at all those wins you've now stacked up, right?

It's a simple concept. It's proven to be effective. I don't understand why we don't use it universally.

[00:28:11] Chris Langley: No, I'm a big proponent of harm reduction myself. I've seen the changes when policies change, and the effect it has on users. In the UK, we went from a harm reduction to an abstinence. And the chaos it caused in a very short space of time was massive. I saw it for myself. And, we had a lot of overdoses and more blood borne viruses happening.

And just because of a simple policy change like that. I'm a huge, supporter of it, of harm reduction. So thank, thanks for that description, Gus. That explains it perfectly. What can other addiction professionals listening to this podcast do to serve the LGBTQ+ community better? What can they do better?

[00:28:57] Gus Raymond: You know, over in this corner, we're experiencing a great deal of flooding right now. There's, bear with me, because I promise this is related to your question. There's been unprecedented damage. Entire communities have been completely wiped out, and I have seen an incredible amount of community response and neighbor response, right? And I've seen these beautiful posts of people who are not totally from this area and people who are from this area who are just amazed at the outpouring of, I'll even put down my own broken stuff that's I've lost everything. I'll go next door and help the other person who's lost everything,

right? And the outpouring of community behavior and the outpouring of. Of just love and support and generosity to one another, right? I, was struck by that, as a trans person, sitting in these same communities, knowing that's not how we always treat each other. And knowing that outside of an emergency, and sometimes in an emergency, who you are matters. And I would like people to really work on that concept. I would like people to take a look at who they are right now in these circumstances and really strive to be this level of generous and this level of human and in community with one another everywhere

[00:30:51] Chris Langley: Yes.

[00:30:52] Gus Raymond: In all circumstances and in their jobs and in their positions and in their places of authority, and power, right? And, we wouldn't have nearly the concerns and issues that we have, if that were the case. If the folks who are also providing services, like I do out in the community, responding the way that they're responding right now could also come to work and be that way. I, wouldn't have to send people certain places to only safe people, right?

Everybody would be a safe person.

[00:31:33] Chris Langley: Yes.

[00:31:34] Gus Raymond: Everybody would be a neighbor. We're just human beings.

[00:31:39] Chris Langley: That's right. That's right. Yeah, that's perfectly put. Thank you for that. excuse me. Many addiction treatment centers, Gus, rely on group work and continued group support for those in recovery. What LGBTQ+ individuals and what do you see working best as solutions?

[00:32:04] Gus Raymond: especially in rural areas, that's extremely difficult, but in general, that's hard, right? Outside of, specialized urban areas where they have queer focused groups or, on purposely open groups that are, LGBTQ affirming or outwardly open to everyone, right? Other than that, you face that same question of, do I withhold who I am?

Do I have the ability to withhold who I am? Is this a safe space for me to be open about my partner or my life or, the fact that we are same sex parents or the fact that we're queer or the fact that I'm trans? There's all this juggling you have to do when you're really there to deal with whatever addiction or and or mental health concern that you are struggling with,

right? On top of worrying about whether or not the facility is safe, on top of worrying about whether or not the clinician is safe, there's all these layers that you have to go through. And the more rural you get, the more layers of those you have to deal with,

right? And the less safety there is, unfortunately. And, again, that's generalized, but it's also generally true. So what we really need to do is work on our, recognition that we really aren't everywhere. There might not be as many of us out here as there are in maybe an urban setting, but we're here and we need to recognize that, and we need to work on our levels of inclusivity. And making inclusive and affirming spaces so that people don't have to do all that juggling just to figure out if they can deal with their recovery in this space.

[00:34:03] Chris Langley: Gus, have you a message to anyone struggling with addiction from, the LGBTQ+ community and who is experiencing difficulties with, getting help for their addiction? Have you a message for anyone?

[00:34:21] Gus Raymond: The hardest part is that, feeling, that layered feeling that not only are you struggling with the addiction that you're struggling with, but that you are that much more alone than we already feel

in our addiction.

There, there is help. We are out here, right? There are clinicians like me that are out here and sometimes you have to do a little bit of that extra research to find us, but we're here and anyone is welcome to contact me and I will help find a referral. I have no problem with that. That's very important to me.

[00:35:05] Chris Langley: Yes.

[00:35:05] Gus Raymond: So I hope that we make sure that my information will be available because I want to make sure that they recognize they're not alone And that there are services and folks that will help.

[00:35:16] Chris Langley: That perfectly goes on to one of my last questions, Gus. Where can people find you online and how can people reach out to you?

[00:35:23] Gus Raymond: Obviously, I have a linkedin page. I have my website, which is araymondllc. com

[00:35:31] Chris Langley: Yes.

[00:35:32] Gus Raymond: And there's all kinds of contact information on there And ARaymond Consulting LLC also has a Facebook page. Those are great places to get a hold of me.

[00:35:41] Chris Langley: Fabulous. Fabulous. Last thing, is there anything else you'd like to tell our audience today, Gus? That I've probably forgotten to ask or mention,

[00:35:50] Gus Raymond: you know Nothing spectacular. I just, I think it's just the, reminder that, it's our duty as clinicians. I, just want to remind people of that. Like, all of those moments of discomfort that come up, those are normal. They're natural. They're going to come up with almost any kind of client. It's possible. And that's not a failure on our part as a clinician. It means that's an opportunity for growth.

[00:36:20] Chris Langley: Yes.

[00:36:21] Gus Raymond: It doesn't mean, oof, get rid of.

It means, okay, let's figure this out.

And LGBTQ folks are sometimes opportunities for growth for some clinicians, but we're also human beings and we are desperately in need of services and support.

So I just ask people to remember that.

[00:36:42] Chris Langley: That's a perfect way to end today's podcast, Gus. I'm truly honored to have you on today. I've learned an awful lot. I'm sure our audience will as well. And I just want to thank you personally for taking the time out of your very busy schedule, my goodness me, to come and talk to me today. And, I look forward to having you on again sometime.

Thanks very much indeed, Gus.

[00:37:04] Gus Raymond: Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it.

[00:37:06] Chris Langley: Anytime. Speak soon.

Do, do, do, do, do.