Ep13 Addiction Treatment: Sober Living and the beautiful Kim Jones Deputy Director, Community Collaboration of Delaware

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[00:00:02] Chris Langley: Hi, welcome to the Addiction Recovery Place Podcast, the podcast championing addiction treatment professionals around the world. I'm very pleased to introduce today's guest, Kim Jones. Kim is a Deputy Director at Community Collaboration of Delaware, where she brings her expertise in program development and implementation. With a passion for community engagement,

kim oversees. The design and execution of these initiatives of the organization. She works closely with community stakeholders, volunteers and partner organizations to ensure the programs are effective, responsive and impactful. Kim's extraordinary story was featured recently in the New York Times, where she said that the burden she put on her family during the years she was using drugs is what keeps me up at night. Kim now dedicates her work to helping others. The vision statement I just wanted to read from Community Collaboration pretty much sums up the great work that they do and what they're all about. It says, "our vision is to create a vibrant and exclusive community in which individuals and family feel empowered to transform their lives." Welcome to the Addiction Recovery Place podcast. Kim, thanks so much for joining us.

[00:01:15] Kim Jones: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.

[00:01:18] Chris Langley: Thanks so much. Really appreciate your time. So I know how busy you are. So we're just going to get straight into the first question. Kim,

[00:01:24] Kim Jones: Sure.

[00:01:25] Chris Langley: Please tell us about your incredibly inspiring journey and how you became the Deputy Director of Community Collaborations. .

[00:01:36] Kim Jones: So I started with Community Collaboration back in 2019. My journey into recovery is a kind of a long one. I think, many people started as, a teenager. For me, it was even earlier than that. I knew the second that I tried alcohol that I loved it, and in hindsight, that's a really dangerous feeling to experience, but I had no idea at the time kind of

what I was entering into. I, again, looking back, I think alcoholism was an issue for me in my early 20s and probably throughout my, the rest of my 20s. I did a lot of binge drinking in college but didn't really think of it as alcoholism because I looked around and I was doing the same things that my peers were doing.

So we were all kind of partying and having a good time in college and it didn't occur to me that it was a problem for me, but not necessarily for them. I stopped drinking when I got married and had my two children and didn't drink for a number of years after that. And then my husband and I, things didn't work out.

We went through a divorce. It was amicable, but it was sad. I was mourning the loss of my marriage and mourning the, the, I guess what my kids were not going to get to experience, which was a two parent household. I had grown up, with, in a two parent household and never had to deal with divorce.

And I was sad for my kids, and I, definitely didn't want that. And so I was in a very vulnerable position and had met a gentleman that, he seemed to, he was like Mr. Charming, just, said all the right things. Did all the right things. He was nice to my kids. He made me feel good about myself.

And what I didn't know was that he was a seasoned drug user and, that he actually, was, had just gotten released from prison not that long ago. He had already violated his probation. and what started out for me, just experimenting or having a good time with him, using cocaine every once in a while, quickly spiraled into a full blown addiction.

I say quickly spiraled for me. It was a several months process, but, to the point where I was using every weekend and then I was calling the dealer myself, and that continued to escalate, over a year or so. When he introduced me into, to crack cocaine. and then I started using that with him.

I had never seen crack before. He told me that we were just smoking cocaine. So I was naive. I had no idea. And I was like, "Oh, okay." And, learned later that it was crack. Eventually he introduced me to heroin. and IV drug use. And so I became addicted to that as well. And eventually I ended up following him to Florida, where, within a few days time, I found myself homeless and living on the streets.

And so that was very challenging. I ended up living in somebody's shed in their backyard for a while. And, And then, and I was doing all of the things that drug addicts do to survive. All the things that you can imagine I was doing and, and it was a horrible existence.

It was scary. It was lonely. I was away from my family, from my children. I was consumed with regret and guilt and shame and, all of the feelings that we have during our addiction. And, just feeling like the, I didn't deserve to be alive and that my family would be much better off without me.

I had a, a vague outline of a plan, of how I was going to end things because I just couldn't see myself going on that way any longer. And I had gotten hooked up, or linked up with some of the local drug dealers and they had, what you would call a side business.

So when they weren't dealing drugs, they were stealing purses from, cars out of parking lots where, where gyms are. They would target these cars because a lot of times women would leave their purses in the cars while they went inside the gym to work out. And they were recruiting essentially, drug addicts like myself, other women who would, be willing to drive through bank lines, the drive thrus of banks to cash checks using the fake or the IDs and the checkbooks that they had stolen out of these handbags and so that seemed like a good alternative to me versus, begging on the streets and doing all the things that I was doing to survive.

And in my disease mind, I really thought that, if I could save up enough money, I could get back to Delaware and get back to my kids. And, and I thought, when I'm in Delaware, I know how to get myself some help. I know some of the resources in Delaware that I can access, and I didn't know any of the resources in Florida, and I was living there without an I.D. without anything without any kind of supports whatsoever. So they asked me if I would be willing to go on a road trip with them. And so I thought, here's my chance. We're going to pass through Delaware. So I'll just ditch them when we get to Delaware and I'll be great. And again, I, this made perfect sense in my mind.

Looking back, it obviously doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but, the trip didn't last very long. We were in the state of North Carolina and, they had me going through these bank lines to cash these checks and, not too long after being in the state of North Carolina, I got arrested

which was a blessing in disguise for sure. So I, I just remember breathing a sigh of relief when I saw the cop cars behind me, even though I was a little bit scared at the same time. I thought, okay, like it's over. I don't have to use drugs again. I don't have to be involved with these people again.

It was just getting started though. I was arrested by a local police department in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And eventually I was charged in seven different counties in the state, but I was also charged on the federal level. And so while these counties were trying to figure out what to do with me, because essentially they were waiting for the feds to figure out what they were doing with me, I got transferred nearly 30 times between seven different county jails in a 16 month period.

So that was, an interesting experience to say the least. But eventually I pled guilty to the federal charges and the counties in North Carolina dropped all of the charges that I had there. So I ended up spending an additional nine months in a federal prison camp in Danbury, Connecticut. And then, when I finished that term, I came home to a federal halfway house in Delaware for about a month and a half or so.

And then I spent a little bit of time on home confinement following that. and yeah, and then a four year supervised probation period. And I just finished off paying my federal restitution a couple of months ago. A big milestone, 10 years post release. I finally don't owe a debt to the federal system.

[00:09:42] Chris Langley: It must be a massive weight off your mind.

[00:09:45] Kim Jones: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:48] Chris Langley: Goodness me. That's, that's an incredible story. Kim, thank you very much for sharing that with us. So how did you start with community Collaboration and, how did you get involved with this service?

[00:10:02] Kim Jones: I'll go back a little bit further than that. in 2014, when I got released from prison, I was fortunate enough that a friend of my sister's hired me to work at her bagel shop and, I, didn't think that I was institutionalized coming out of prison, but I really was, and I remember the first conversation I had with a regular customer and he asked me like, what are you doing here?

It just, it seems like, this isn't the right place for you to be working and I was scared to death to tell him why I was there. He was a retired state trooper. And I thought, "Oh gosh, like, why does he have to be the one asking me? He's definitely going to judge me, and we're probably never going to have a conversation again."

So I just told him, I was a drug addict, and I just got out of prison and this is my first job and he was so incredibly supportive and that kind of gave me the confidence to be a little more open with other people about what I was experiencing. And at the same time I was participating in an outpatient program at

an organization called Gaudenzia, and they're a pretty large treatment provider out here on the East Coast, mostly in Pennsylvania, but they had a couple of Delaware programs as well, and at that time, they were launching a peer certification course, and they had selected several individuals from Delaware to participate.

And I went to them and asked them if I could participate too. I had a, my career prior to my drug addiction was working in the pharmaceutical industry, and so I knew what it was like to be in a professional role and thought that, this peer certification might be a way for me to get back into something more professional,

and something that, where I might be able to support my kids again. Certainly a minimum wage job wasn't going to pay the bills, and, provide a lifestyle for my kids that I felt like they deserved. Guardenzia was gracious enough to allow me to participate in that program. And then once the courses were over, they hired me on as an admin in one of their Delaware programs,

and so that was how I got into this field, and eventually I worked my way up and became the Division Director for their Delaware programs. And then in 2019, friends of mine were starting Community Collaboration of Delaware, and they wanted to run a sober living program, and they knew that based on the experience that I had through

my professional experiences with Gaudenzia and as well as some of the volunteer work I had done in sober living in the community that I could help them get that program up and running. So I chose to leave Gaudenzia and, I took a pretty significant pay cut to help start the nonprofit and get it up and running, but it was really, it was such a great move for me because I had been very frustrated with the treatment industry, with all the, massive amounts of paperwork that you have to do to satisfy the insurance companies and the licensing, and regulations and all that kind of stuff.

I really felt like it was taking away from the patient care aspect and being able to provide these services that all of these agencies claim they provide, they're so inundated with, the burden of the paperwork and the administrative tasks that oftentimes, it's the patients who end up suffering because they don't get the full benefits of the services that, that they should be receiving while they're in these facilities.

And I thought, what better way to help, individuals in their recovery. They're coming out of treatment. It can be, and I know from my own experience coming out of the prison system, a very overwhelming feeling, now all of a sudden I'm out of this controlled environment. I have bills to pay.

My kids want to know where I've been. Why I haven't been involved in their lives. I'm expected to take on the role of a mother again, right away. I need to find a job where, you know, and I need to pay rent. I need to do all of these things. And holy crap, how am I supposed to manage my recovery at the same time?

So sober living gives people a good opportunity to work on those skills and getting grounded in their recovery. and, being able to practice these things in a structured environment with the support of others. And so I was really excited to be able to join CCD and take on that role.

And, it's been a great journey.

[00:14:53] Chris Langley: It certainly has. That's nothing short of inspiring, Kim. That really is quite incredible, your journey that you've had and where you are now and where you came from, that's, a hat off to you there. that's amazing. Thank you very much for sharing that with us. I'll just go on to ask about Community Collaboration a little bit more, Kim,

your four core programs there, can you tell us a little bit about these and what they each involve? Oh,

[00:15:19] Kim Jones: Yeah, absolutely. so I'll start with our youth development program. So that, that program we recently just finished up an extended school care program in one of the local school districts where we're located, and so we were providing before and after care programming to the kindergarten through fifth graders at an elementary school that's near, our main location.

And so what we really sought out to do in that program is to teach some of those early prevention skills through social, emotional learning and, it happened to be in the form of before and after care in the school. It happens also to be a Title 1 school, so we knew that it was, a school where there really was a need for some of this free programming and, to help offset the burden that parents experience with having to provide, and pay for childcare.

So that program just actually wrapped up at the end of the school year, but we were able to do all kinds of cool stuff with the kids. Some of the STEM based learning, we had a woman who comes in, from a company called Exquisite Delights, and she taught them all kinds of things about math and measuring and, and all the, the

not so fun parts of math, not a math person, but she made it fun for cupcake decoraing. And then there was different curricula that were incorporated in the program as well to teach them some of these social emotional learning things, which is like the pre-steps to prevention programming.

So that's our youth development program. We also have a standalone prevention program called the HOPE program, which stands for healthy options for prevention education. And that's targeted for an older population, but that would also fall under our youth development program. We have our, flagship program, which is our care program,

and that is our sober living program. So we currently operate five sober living homes in Newcastle, Delaware. We have three men's homes and two women's homes. We can accommodate up to 70 men and women in the program. And we provide, our entire staff is made up of peers, including myself. So first and foremost, we provide the peer support from individuals who have the lived experiences that our residents have.

And I think that's critical. When we're providing these services, because we all share that common ground and, what better place than, to connect with others through that common experience. But our peers do a lot more than just providing that peer support. They also provide case management services to our residents, so we help them with everything that, could you know, possibly come up in their recovery.

At least we try to anyway. So we get our residents established with IOP. We get them reconnected to a primary care physician because a lot of them haven't seen a doctor in a number of years, and they need to get reestablished with preventive medical care and, addressing any current medical issues that they might have.

We help our residents develop recovery plans, obtain sponsors, home groups, all of those kinds of things that are really important in early recovery. We just launched our CORE program, which stands for Community Outreach Response and Engagement, and so that's our community facing program where we have, peers that are dedicated to reaching individuals where they're living in the community, and so we have a partnership with the Newcastle City Police Department, and in an organization called the Claymont Renaissance Development Corporation, where we provide that direct peer support in the community.

So with the police department, they actually provide us with information about individuals that they would like us to contact. And that might be through a police call or just through a community interaction that they may have had, and our peers will reach out to those individuals and help connect them to any type of supportive services that they may need.

And it goes beyond just substance use disorders. It really is designed to address all of those social determinants of health. So even if somebody is having, dealing with an issue of food insecurity, or, maybe they, they're having trouble paying for diapers for their child, or whatever the case may be, we're trying to get them connected to resources that can assist them and help improve their lives.

And then, with the Claymont Renaissance Development Corporation, we actually do targeted peer services in a specific neighborhood in Claymont, called Knollwood, and the neighborhood just has a history of drugs, violence, a lot of social determinant of health issues happening in that neighborhood.

So we're really trying to target services to the individuals and the families that live there. And then our last program is our naloxone program, and that really is just providing free Narcan to anyone who needs it, and in Delaware, we also have an issue with xylazine in the fentanyl, that, we're seeing here.

The Narcan kits include xylazine test strips

as well. yeah. And, and that's a partnership that we have with the Division of Substance Abuse and Mental Health in Delaware. And, they've done a really good job of helping agencies like CCD, maintain an ample supply of Narcan to push out into the community, and that's free to anyone who wants it. We'll come to somebody's house to train them how to use Narcan to deliver the Narcan to them we'll train in the community.

So our peers, not that long ago, trained the funeral directors association in Delaware on how to use Narcan and provided them with kits. and we'll, we'll basically tailor the training to whatever the need is and whoever the group or individual is.

[00:21:30] Chris Langley: That just sounds incredible. You've covered all the bases. That's, incredibly inspiring. You've, so you work closely with the police as well as an

agency. Wow. how did that happen? How did that, relation, cause that's quite

a, it's quite a tentative one to start with, I suppose.

[00:21:49] Kim Jones: Right. Delaware is very small. There's about two degrees of separation between anyone. And, and it's interesting, even the New York Times article that you mentioned, the photographer that came out, we ended up having a mutual connection, and he was from another town in Pennsylvania. We didn't really have any other connections, but figured it out shortly after he was here that we have, this mutual connection.

And that's not a surprising thing to happen in Delaware, just the way that it is. So our company is based in Newcastle, Delaware. within Newcastle County, but Newcastle has a city police department, a local municipality. And because of our location and just, mutual friends or acquaintances, the police chief reached out to CCD and let us know that he was, working on a funding initiative to, help address some of the issues and concerns that they were experiencing as a police department with individuals who, might have a substance use disorder.

And, from a police perspective, they see it pretty frequently, and they're not social workers. They're not peers. So they recognize that they might not be the ones that are the most appropriate, or, necessarily have the skill set to help the individuals,

and they want to provide the help and services.

And so they thought that it was a great way to partner with CCD, both organizations being local to the community, and allowing us to step in where they felt our expertise might be a little bit better than theirs. And oftentimes, people aren't always willing to talk to the police, and they might be afraid to disclose certain things because they don't, want to get in trouble, or they're afraid that, it could open up a, a can of worms or something like that.

And the peer that we have, running that program, his name is CJ. He's phenomenal. And he just has this way of connecting with virtually anyone, and he has been very successful in helping individuals get connected to treatment. He's helped individuals with applying for Medicaid, with applying for

food stamps with, getting them connected to legal services when the Division of Family Services is involved and, he's just doing great work out there.

[00:24:27] Chris Langley: Goodness me. Would you say fentanyl was becoming a major problem in Delaware, Kim?

[00:24:34] Kim Jones: Yeah. And it has been for quite some time. I mentioned that the Narcan kits that we distribute have fentanyl test strips in a, in them. And the Division of Substance Abuse and Mental Health has made those available, like I said, to any agency or provider who is a Narcan distributor, which is really great.

But fentanyl has been around for a number of years in Delaware. Most recently xylaxine has become a larger issue in the state as well. And so there are several agencies who have wound care teams that will deploy into the community or who have hours for people to come into a specific location for wound care,

and so that's an evolving thing for the state of Delaware. There's a new drug that's in the supply now called I'm gonna mess up the pronunciation I have. I'm looking at it on my phone. Medetomidine, which is similar to Xylazine, is, an animal, a veterinary tranquilizer.

And my understanding is that it's not approved for human consumption, so there's not clinical trials or any data to suggest how it affects the human body. That's something new that we're experiencing in Delaware that, we're trying to figure out how to address and respond to appropriately as quickly as possible.

The Division of Substance Abuse and Mental Health, is on it, as well as some other agencies, trying to figure out the best tactic to get people educated about what's in the drug supply, as well as the proper treatment protocols for it. So it's, it's an evolving challenge I'd say in the state of Delaware.

[00:26:22] Chris Langley: Yeah, very much. excuse me, it seems that risks are just increasing every

couple, every six months. There's something else that seems to come into the drug supply that's no one knows about and no one knows how to deal with. And it's, it's pretty frightening. I've spoken to quite a few people on this podcast about this, and it's just how you keep up with these new trends and the risks and everything else that comes with it.

It's, certainly a major concern. Kim, just tell us quickly about your amazing team that you have at Community Collaboration.

[00:26:56] Kim Jones: Yeah, absolutely. I, we definitely have some great players on our team. We're really lucky. Like I said before that, all of us on the team are in recovery which is great because we bring so many different experiences from our, own lives to the table. And I think that really helps us in terms of program development and implementation.

Because we know what worked for us. We know what didn't work. We know that, the lived experience is really how we create programs of value to other individuals and being able to, collect feedback from our residents and from the other people we serve, help us to continue to improve our programs.

Several of our peers actually have come through our housing program. And so from a Workforce Development perspective, we've been able to give individuals, careers, that may have at one point or another thought they would only be, working a job or a minimum wage job, just like, I felt, many years ago.

And to see them grow and blossom in their roles is like the most amazing thing. They really are just incredible. But we have a team of about a dozen people or so. Like I said, several of them are graduates of our own program, which is great. Most of them have either completed the peer certification training, or they're in the process of completing that.

We've seen, for example, CJ, who I mentioned earlier, within the last year, he was able to buy his first car. He obtained his GED. He got his peer certification. He just went to his son's graduation the other night, so being able to witness the miracles that are promised and, see it amongst our staff members is just, it's beautiful.

Sorry. I get a little emotional cause I love

[00:28:59] Chris Langley: Of course.

[00:29:00] Kim Jones: They're great.

[00:29:02] Chris Langley: All of them, everyone that you work with, Kim, everyone that you work with is getting so much from you and your experiences in life and what you've gone through. You can pass on to others to really help them, and every one of your team members are doing this and,

you certainly it's, this is such an interesting conversation.

I'm, feeling quite inspired by this, believe me, I'm, I've done quite a few

of these podcasts. It's just.

[00:29:28] Kim Jones: shining stars. They really are. And they're such great role models for the rest of the recovery community. Two of our staff members started a, 12-step support group that was meeting on there's, they meet on Thursday nights and they have close to a thousand followers on social media.

They just started another meeting on Monday nights and, they're, like I said, they're just like, they're pillars of the community. They're really just showing everybody how it's done, and, showing everybody a path forward that, that, that anybody can get on this path and, that there are people that will walk the path with them and that will help them along the way.

And so it's just, it's been a privilege to watch that.

[00:30:17] Chris Langley: Yeah, that's the word I would certainly use working with this client group. That's for sure. Final few questions, Kim, Doing these podcasts, I've heard quite a variety of descriptions around harm reduction and what it means. And can you tell us your opinion of what harm reduction is, please?

[00:30:36] Kim Jones: Yeah, absolutely. I think from my perspective, harm reduction is just meeting somebody where they're at, and we hear that term thrown around a lot. And I'm almost hesitant to use it, but I can't think of other words to describe it at the moment. But, I think for some people, harm reduction is, maybe reducing their use, for other people

it's finding safer ways to use. So maybe through a syringe services program, maybe through, switching from injecting to smoking, for example. It could be a number of different things to a number of different individuals, but I think at the heart of it, it is, providing resources to individuals in a safe way and in a compassionate way so that when they decide they're ready for help, if that's what they decide that they have a trusted ally.

and a trusted person that they can turn to and say, "Kim, I don't want to do this anymore. Please help me." Or, "Kim, can can you help me along with this particular thing?" Whatever the case may be. but I think that having that compassion for individuals just keeps the door open for them so that when they're ready.

And it's on their terms, they can get the help that they need. But I was having a conversation with somebody earlier about, the, light bulb aha moments that those of us in recovery probably can all identify of, how we got on this path and how we stayed in recovery and that it's different for everyone.

We were talking about a certain treatment program that we were both familiar with and how it didn't work for this particular individual that I was speaking with, but I knew somebody else who, was very successful following treatment in that program. And it just goes to show that it, it really is dependent on the individual

and where they are in their own process and when they're ready to make changes or accept information, and we all have that aha moment at different times, but wouldn't it be horrible if somebody had that aha moment and a door was shut because we weren't providing the compassionate services that we should be providing.

And so to me, that's what harm reduction is just, being available for the person for whatever their needs are.

[00:33:05] Chris Langley: That's a perfect description. There really is. I completely relate to everything you've just said there, Kim, so thank you for that. What are the future plans for Community Collaboration? Have you got anything in the pipeline you might be working on at the moment?

[00:33:18] Kim Jones: Definitely. so first and foremost, we want to meet, make sure that the programs that we have in place are doing what they're designed to do. And that's, to provide the essential services to the men and women that we serve in the community that we serve. We do have a very unique opportunity to expand our space into a school building that has been closed down for a number of years that a local community member is working to, revitalize and, turn into a community services type of building.

So my goal for CCD is to have space in that building so that individuals can come seek our services. So it's right along a location in Newcastle. That's called the Route 9 Corridor, and so anybody familiar with Delaware and that area knows it's a location that's ripe with crime, drugs, prostitution, all of the things that, that my organization would like to help with.

But it's within walking distance of that route 9 corridor, and we want to have a location that is affirming, that's compassionate, that has its doors open, so that if somebody needs our help, we're there to help them. But we also want to extend beyond that and provide additional services to the community at large.

Having that free naloxone education and, kits to provide to people. incorporating different 12-step groups, and other recovery based groups for community members to access. So whether it's Smart Recovery or Recovery Dharma or, any other type of recovery group, maybe an education group, that sort of thing.

We want to be able to provide those out to the community, and then we also want to make sure that we have space available for training and education, not just for our staff, but for other providers as well. And so we have, a few groups that we're working with on designing different trainings, for, for other providers or other agencies in the state.

And then hopefully we'll provide similar community based trainings for loved ones or individuals who just have an interest in a topic as well. So those are just a couple of the things that we're doing. I'm sure there, other things will come along at some point as well.

[00:35:49] Chris Langley: Just a couple of things there, Kim, just a couple of things. My goodness, me incredibly busy, but no. No, congratulations on everything that you've achieved and with your organization and with the great work that you're doing and your plans just sound amazing. Big congratulations there for you to you all and to the team. So where can people find you, Kim and your work online? Where can people find you?

[00:36:11] Kim Jones: Community Collaboration of Delaware is on all the socials, so you can find us there. Our website is communitycollabde.org. So you can also find us there or just a quick Google search, Community Collaboration of Delaware should take you right to us.

[00:36:28] Chris Langley: Perfect. Thank you very much. Indeed. Last question, Kim. Is there anything else you'd like to mention that I've not asked you? And do you have a message for anyone looking for help with their addiction?

[00:36:38] Kim Jones: I think the message for people who are looking for help is that, especially if you're in Delaware, I can't speak to other states, but in Delaware, there is help that's available. And, not just through CCD, but there are a number of organizations and individuals who are ready and waiting to help somebody with whatever it is that they need, and so much of the workforce in Delaware, that, is focusing on this work, have their, have lived experiences themselves, and they have such a passion for helping other individuals.

And so it doesn't have to necessarily be through CCD. It could be through a number of the other agencies that are doing great work in the state of Delaware. But, any number of us are here ready waiting just to take your call, to, have a conversation with you on the street, talk to your mom, whoever it may be and, and help get you on the path that you want to be on,

and it really, it can be very scary, but, that's the hardest part, it really is. And then, after that, there's a huge network of people ready to support.

[00:37:56] Chris Langley: That's right. I couldn't have finished it any better than that, Kim. I just want to thank you so much for your time and also, thank you so much for your team and to yourself for providing people in Delaware, the vital service that you're all providing on a daily basis. Thank you very much for your time today and joining me on the podcast.

And, we look forward to hearing more about Community Collaboration in the future. That's for sure. Sounds like you've got some big plans, but thank you so much, Kim. I really appreciate it.

[00:38:23] Kim Jones: Thank you, Chris. I had a great time today. Thanks for having me.

[00:38:27] Chris Langley: Thanks, Kim. Bye bye.

Do, do, do, do, do.