Ep01 Dan Tallman | Addiction Treatment with Self-determination

Chris Langley: Hello and welcome to the first Addiction Recovery Place podcast. I'm absolutely thrilled to introduce our first guest, Dan Tallman. Dan is the Executive Director at Acceptance Recovery and Counseling here in Iowa and has been providing this service since 2019.

Chris Langley: So welcome, Dan. Thank you so much for being here.

Dan Tallman: Yeah. Thank you so much, Chris.

Chris Langley: And you, and you. It's been it's been a long time coming, but I'm very glad to have you here. But thank you very much Indeed. So we'll just kick off straight away. So tell us how you started your counseling service and in Iowa and what, what was your journey leading up to that point?

Dan Tallman: I So I actually, I started Acceptance Recovery as a, as a independent contractor working for another agency in 2016. Prior to that, I, I would say the thing that drew me to substance use and addiction work is my own recovery journey. And I think that that's pretty common in the field.

Dan Tallman: But I got to a point where I realized that it was a really big part of my [00:01:00] life, my recovery, and I wanted to be able to help others get there. And I've also always been a kind of a lifelong learner, so I wasn't hesitant to go back school and did that. In 2016, I did a one year program at Kirkwood Community College to become a drug and alcohol counselor.

Dan Tallman: Did that for a couple years, full-time before realizing that I really wanted to add in the mental health piece. And so I did go back to graduate school. I actually got two master's degrees from the University of Iowa, one in Social Work and then one from the college of law. Part of that really motivated by the, the things that I saw as a full-time addiction counselor, which is that so many changes to be made and gaps to fill at the intersection of substance use, addiction and the criminal justice system.

Dan Tallman: And so being able to combine the social work and the law piece has been a really good thing for me especially in supporting the clients that I am now, that many of whom do have criminal legal involvement. And so started the, the practice myself, January of 2020, immediately after grad school.

Dan Tallman: So that was [00:02:00] an interesting time to

Chris Langley: goodness me.

Dan Tallman: Did a lot of telehealth that first year after Covid. But it's been, it's been really great. We've been able to. Serve a ton of clients these last three, four years. And then this summer I realized that I wanted to expand a little bit. So moved to a bigger office, have one full-time counselor working for me now.

Dan Tallman: We do have one practicum student this semester. And then looking to hire some part-time help in this in the near

Chris Langley: Wow. That's, that's an incredible journey. I mean, you've, so you've went from 2016 to 2020 and you've started this amazing service. I mean, fair play to you. That's that's incredible. That's a wonderful story. And you know, that's, that's absolutely incredible. No, it's, that's, that's, that's brilliant.

Chris Langley: So, so, so what are each of the services that you offer, Dan? What, what, tell, run us through a little bit about what you do and, you know, how your, your counseling service works and Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Tallman: Yeah, absolutely. So I knew when I started the practice, especially really doing it on my own in 2020, that I wanted to do some things differently. I had [00:03:00] been in treatment a bunch myself, and so I learned a lot about what residential treatment looks like, what outpatient treatment looks like, and certainly.

Dan Tallman: You know, through my educational experiences learned a lot about that as well. The vast majority of the work that we do is individual counseling. I think that that's where the, the real magic happens, especially in early recovery. The last year or so, I have added in a couple of groups. So we're doing one in person outpatient group.

Dan Tallman: That we're doing quite a bit of aftercare for folks that have been to residential treatment or just kind of folks that are, need a relatively low level care. We have a similar group that it meets virtually one evening a week. And then we're also currently doing an adolescent group that's more psychoeducational in nature.

Dan Tallman: But like I said, excuse me, the, the vast majority of what we're doing is individual counseling. I try really hard to introduce my clients to a, a different style of counseling, therapy treatment than maybe they've been used to, especially if they've had addiction treatment in the past, right? Where I'm talking to them about [00:04:00] all of the ways that substance use affects their life, right?

Dan Tallman: And how do we improve each of those in turn, as opposed to. You're an alcoholic, let's focus on abstinence. That's the first thing. And the only thing, and the, that's what we're gonna talk about, right? I think that harm reduction really for me is, is something that I've embraced in the last handful of years and, and harm reduction gets a bad rap because it often gets pitted against abstinence.

Dan Tallman: And I think that that's a real mistake. I always tell people that abstinence is the safest form of harm reduction. Right. And so the, I think those two things are a lot more cohesive than we make it out to be in the field.

Chris Langley: So, so your view on harm reduction so what exactly is that? What would you say is the main core of harm reduction for, for you as a counselor?

Dan Tallman: Yeah. To me it's about really connecting with that client on an individual basis. Right. And I named the practice Acceptance Recovery for a reason, because people walk in the door and they feel accepted. Right? I, I, I, I heard a quote recently and I don't have the [00:05:00] name to attribute it to, but people who feel unacceptable don't change.

Dan Tallman: Right? And so I want every person who walks in the door to feel accepted who they are. Cared about and really heard, right? And so what I'm, I'm doing in that first conversation with clients is hearing them about what they want to change their life. Now, often that includes, I want to change my substance use, right?

Dan Tallman: But I'm talking to them about how do I improve my relationships, right? How do I improve my motivation to take care of myself or engage in self care activities? How do I be a better employee, a better father? Because I, I think, like I said, historically, addiction treatment has really been, abstinence is the first thing and the only thing, and, and I think it's so much

Chris Langley: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, part of part of having a, an issue with alcohol or drug use, it's stigma. And that's part of overcoming acceptance. And I think, and I, I mean clients I work with, I'd certainly agree with that. It's, it's kind of, you're kind of shunned and you should, you know, [00:06:00] it's, it's, it's a whole nother beast, really.

Chris Langley: And if, and if that's your main focus as a counselor, I. I mean, that's amazing because so many other counselors I've come across it is abstinence. It's all about being drug free, and that's the big goal. And it's not, there's so much more that you can go through before you get to that point. And I totally agree.

Chris Langley: And I, a hundred percent behind you on that one, so that, that's great. And how do you find clients react to that? Is it, are they ever surprised, kind of your kind of, you know, your, your, your as well? I mean.

Dan Tallman: No, that's a really good question. I, I think I, I see that most when I do OWI evaluations, which is something that we certainly do a lot of. So if you're arrested for OWI in Iowa, you have to get a substance use evaluation. We do a lot of those evaluations. And I'm often, I'm often meeting with a client who does not really wanna be doing this evaluation.

Dan Tallman: Right. They're pretty annoyed with the core system in general because it can be a, a lengthy and complicated process. And, and what my message to that client almost invariably is, is I, I'm not gonna [00:07:00] make you do anything that you don't wanna do. Right. And I think that that's really different from historically what we've done in addiction treatment too.

Dan Tallman: Where we just say, you've gotta do treatment. It doesn't matter what you think. I, I, I think I've come up with a, a way to write really creative treatment recommendations and treatment plans in a way that my clients are generally okay with the recommendations that I'm making. Right. And it doesn't necessarily have to be, you've gotta go to group for three hours a week for the next 12 weeks or whatever.

Dan Tallman: The other thing that I'm doing a lot of is, is not recommending treatment in the evaluation, but really telling that person, Hey. If this becomes more of a problem six months from now, 12 months from now, 18 months from now, my door's open, right? Or give me a call, shoot me a text. And I can't tell you, Chris, how many of those texts that I've gotten of people saying, Hey Dan, we met a year ago.

Dan Tallman: I wasn't in a great place then to, to receive the help, but I am now and I want to meet. And, and that's I think, where the real magic happens, right? Because you have someone who was given the agency in that decision, right? And given some self-determination over [00:08:00] that. Decision and ultimately that led them to make one that has them seeking help.

Chris Langley: Definitely. So you have people that you worked with a year ago and they've hung onto your details. And they contacted you back. I mean, that's, that just shows the, the, the work that you do is, is, is spot on. Because my experience very different. I mean, when I managed services in England, it was a very different kind of thing.

Chris Langley: We were, we, we were we had clients that were forced to go into treatment and the resistance was terrible, and the results weren't good well. So I mean, that, that's, that's absolutely fantastic. So when you do group therapy, so what are the demographics? Who, who, who do you work? What are the specific kind of client group that you work with?

Chris Langley: If, if you want to go into a little bit of

Dan Tallman: Yeah, we don't limitations on demographics in the two outpatient groups. But really the, the criteria to get into that group are essentially just to meet the, the correct criteria for that level of care. We do have the specific adolescent group and then we are trying to get a women's [00:09:00] group off the ground.

Dan Tallman: I have a, a, a new-ish female social worker who's the full-time counselor, and so she would really like to get a women's group off the ground in the next

Chris Langley: I'm sure that'll be really successful. And that's, that's, that's great that you're offering that as well. 'cause that's, that's something that is desperately needed. It, it, it really, it really is. So I was looking on your, on your website and tell, tell me a little bit about EMDR and how this works. I've, I've never come across this.

Chris Langley: I was fascinated when I, when I read about this on, on, on your website. So if you could tell a little about that, that'd

Dan Tallman: for sure. Yeah, it's a fairly new concept to me. I'm certainly not the, the subject matter expert on that, but just real briefly, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing was developed by a psychologist named Francine Shapiro, was working with Vietnam Combat Veterans. She figured out if they moved their eyes back and forth while they process traumatic memories, that they got better and they got better really quickly.

Dan Tallman: And so, you know, a few decades later, we've done tons and tons of research on EMDR. It's definitely emerged as one of the [00:10:00] strongest evidence-based practices for trauma. And then in the last, I'd say handful of years or maybe decade, there's been more and more, therapists trying EMDR in different contexts and research and development on different EMDR protocols.

Dan Tallman: And so there's actually some really cool EMDR protocols that we can use for substance use to desensitize triggers to help people really, get to a point where the things that maybe push them into a drink or a drug, right? Whether it's boredom or rejection or even, you know, Friday at five o'clock, right?

Dan Tallman: I'm doing EMDR to target those things such that when those triggers come along, that they're not nearly as loud or as unmanageable, right? It's not like you're making that stuff go away for people. It's not a, a hypnosis exercise or anything like that, but I, I found that clients are telling me that they feel a lot more confident in their ability to have the relationship that they want to with substances when we're doing EMDR.

Chris Langley: [00:11:00] It's kind of like a, a second step kind of safety thing for, for those very big trigger points. I mean, as you said, it could just be a Friday, five o'clock thing.

Chris Langley: It could be a boredom thing, but it's just those second steps to kind of realizing those triggers. I think the, because triggers is a, is a big thing to identify. That's, once you've identified those, it kind of makes things a little bit easier to kind of accept that as well. I'm absolutely fascinated, but I've ne I've never heard of that and I'm, I'm, thank you very much indeed for describing that.

Chris Langley: I mean, that, that's, that's, that's wonderful. So what, tell, tell us some of the main problems or barriers that you experience in running your service. And what internal and external support do you have yourself? Yeah.

Dan Tallman: Yeah, those are great questions. I, I think you hit the nail on the head a few minutes ago, Chris. The stigma is one of the biggest barriers to people seeking help. And I, I do a lot of work now with families. We do a, a program called. CRAFT, which is community reinforcement and family training which [00:12:00] essentially teaches family members of substance users how to better support their loved one.

Dan Tallman: And I really think by doing that, through doing that craft and learning a lot about family work these last couple years if we can change the way substance users are treated in their families. I think so many more people are gonna get better, right? If we can strip down the stigma, really have families embrace and support that person in a way that gets them to move along a positive trajectory.

Dan Tallman: Like I said, I think so many more people are gonna get better. I, I would say I have more and more people reaching out of their own volition to say, "Hey, Dan, I wanna change my substance use." And I think that that's a trend. Societally that we're seeing too some people choosing to abstain, especially from alcohol due to health and wellness reasons.

Dan Tallman: So I think that that might be getting a little bit better in some areas of our society. Certainly funding is a, is a barrier to a lot of people. I do accept Iowa Medicaid and I did that as soon as I opened the practice by myself [00:13:00] 2020. I felt like that was important for me to be able to serve those clients.

Dan Tallman: But even doing that, there's a lot of clients that I'm not able to serve, right. If. If they have a, a different commercial payer that I don't accept, or maybe they were on Medicaid, but you know, this summer a lot of people got kicked off of Medicaid or had to renew their paperwork and didn't, that process didn't go smoothly.

Dan Tallman: So I, people being able to pay is, is probably the, the second biggest barrier.

Chris Langley: So you, so you have, so you have clients that you'll work with quite happily, and then Medicaid can come on and just take that away from them. Is that at that

Dan Tallman: Yeah, that does happen. And, and they, they did, I don't know exactly what happened this summer, but there was a big reorganization and a lot of people, you know, they had to renew their paperwork and for whatever reason, they didn't get it through mail they didn't get it dotted. A lot of people were removed from the Medicaid rules this past summer, but I, I think that in general, it's, that process has gotten a little bit better these

Chris Langley: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Okay. That's, that's yeah. 'cause I heard a lot about the Medicaid changes and that obviously that's a big part of [00:14:00] the, the American system is, is obviously paying. So very different UK, but it's still, it is, you know, it's, it's still very important thing to, to be aware of. So Dan, how do you receive referrals for your service?

Chris Langley: Where's your main source of referrals and kind of where, where do they all come from?

Dan Tallman: Yeah. I think, like I said, more and more people are calling because they wanna change their substance use, and those are people who are finding me on Google. Or, you know, Psychology Today is a fairly active kind of therapist directory. Like I said, we do a lot of evaluations for the courts and so I'm getting a lot of referrals either directly from the court where they provide a list of, of approved substance use evaluation providers.

Dan Tallman: Criminal defense attorneys will give my card out a lot their clients for OWIs. I would say in the last year or two, two, I'm getting a lot more referrals from probation, parole the Department of Corrections. But yeah, I, I'd say a pretty good mix of, of different, you know, I, I think it speaks to the fact that addiction affects people in all areas of life.

Dan Tallman: And so it probably, [00:15:00] most people have someone that they could give my

Chris Langley: Oh, yeah. So it's all about networking, I suppose, really, isn't it? You know? So do, do you, do you, do you go to probation offices and kind of meet, meet other offices and do, do you ever do that at all?

Dan Tallman: I've tried to do a little bit of that. I think it, it was interesting, right? I started the practice in January of 2020, so the time that I would've been doing a lot of that, we were all confined to our homes. Right. And so really just in the last couple of years I've tried to kind of put myself out there.

Dan Tallman: I, I was really fortunate too, I did that, like I said, that second master's degree in the college of law, so I met a lot of attorneys that way. A lot of young attorneys who stayed in the area and are practicing criminal defense as well as just running into some criminal defense attorneys who are already practicing.

Dan Tallman: And so definitely have a pretty strong referral network through that.

Chris Langley: That's really good. So talk about drug use in kind of Iowa. Have you identified any new trends at all in the past few years? Have you kind of come across any new drugs or kind of ways people are buying drugs or that kind of thing?

Dan Tallman: Yeah. [00:16:00] Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I've seen is access to all sorts of substances through the dark web in particular that's happening among adolescents, right? Teenagers are incredibly tech savvy and they literally can get on the dark web and have any drug in the world on their doorstep in a few days.

Dan Tallman: And that it, it's, it's very scary because obviously we have no idea where that stuff's coming from, what's in it. You know, Fentanyl is certainly a, a, something that's become a, a bit of a buzzword, right? And it's something that's really scary. There's another substance called Xylazine that's very similar to Fentanyl and

Dan Tallman: is literally, you know, killing people left and right. And so that I say I think would be the biggest trend that I've seen is just access to more and more substances, both through the dark web. I would say too, that cannabis legalization has made that drug in particular a lot more accessible. I think most people had access to cannabis who really wanted it before, but now I mean.

Dan Tallman: It, you know, we're, we're I [00:17:00] think almost surrounded by states that have recreational cannabis use I think

Chris Langley: we, we are in Iowa, that's for sure. Yeah. I think it's just Nebraska. South Dakota's gonna have it as well. We've, we've now got Minneapolis, Illinois, and now Missouri. So, you know that's, yeah, that's, that's, interesting. So it is, it is very worrying about the, the, the dark web stuff. I totally agree with you there.

Chris Langley: It's, it's kind of a new phenomenon and it's kind of just kind of crept in and you know, it's just so easy now for people to, and especially young people to get hold of this stuff where, as you said, they dunno what's in it, you know, as you said with all the Fentanyl scares and all the other stuff.

Chris Langley: And you know, cocaine's just cut down with goodness knows what as well. I mean, in, in England we had that as well. Cocaine in England is. Seven, 8% pure. It's, just amazing. It, it really is. I mean, in, in the UK the main drugs a choice of crack, cocaine and heroin. Do you, do you come across much crack, crack use at all?

Chris Langley: I think

Dan Tallman: I, I think the reason that I don't come across a ton of like [00:18:00] crack cocaine, use heroin, use, even meth, is because I'm doing a fairly low level of treatment, so certainly I do some evaluations for folks that are doing those substances. But most of the time if you're doing a substance like that on a regular basis, I'm recommending a higher level of care than I offer here at Acceptance Recovery.

Dan Tallman: So I don't have a ton of clients who are using those substances. I will say, sort of anecdotally, I think that we kind of go back and forth in Iowa with really heavy methamphetamine use. And then maybe law enforcement catches up and there's some some big busts or people go to prison and then it kind of shifts back over to opiate use.

Dan Tallman: Right. And so there's certainly some of that is happening at all times. But I do think we have, like I said anecdotally, this kind of shifting landscape where when one drug is maybe on the decline, the other is on the incline and.

Chris Langley: Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. So, so you wouldn't say that Fentanyl's a major issue? Well, not a, obviously it's an issue, but it's not a, it's not something you've come across too often, so, okay. So do you refer your [00:19:00] clients to residential rehabs at all?

Chris Langley: I mean, is that, is that something that you do yourself and what's, what's the process or process for, for for you to do that, Dan? Yeah.

Dan Tallman: Yeah, that's actually one of the, the most networking meetings that I do is, is meeting with folks from residential treatment facilities to try to make sure that I'm sending clients to appropriate facilities and programs. I refer quite a bit to Hazelden, which is near the Twin Cities the Abbey and Bettendorf.

Dan Tallman: Top of the World Ranch, which is right across the border in Illinois. And then there's a couple facilities west of Des Moines, St. Gregory, and oh, I'm gonna lose the name. They just opened a new facility. But what I'm looking for mostly in those is a good fit, right? Because a lot of residential treatment is still very 12 step based.

Dan Tallman: And I, I, I, I have a background in 12 step recovery myself. I'm a huge proponent of 12 step recovery. I also tell my clients that 12 step doesn't have to be the only way, and it doesn't have to be what everyone does to get to recovery. And [00:20:00] so a lot of folks will come and say, I, I want to go to residential treatment, but I don't want it to be a 12 step program.

Dan Tallman: And so really helping them find that program I, I think it's such a

Dan Tallman: powerful experience to go to residential treatment that I really try to tell clients to take advantage of that, right? And most clients are, are in a position where they don't really wanna go. But the ones that I meet with who are ready take that step, it can be an absolutely transformative experience if you go there and you really embrace it three, four, or five weeks of, of really working on yourself and taking care of yourself and finding out what's going to work in your recovery.

Dan Tallman: And so a lot of the work that I'm doing with clients is getting them ready for that. Right. And really helping them see that that can be a great opportunity and it doesn't have to be this punitive thing that you're going off to rehab. Right. It's, it's actually something that's gonna springboard the rest of their

Chris Langley: So it's all about preparing clients for rehab, isn't it? It's, that's the real key. I think it, there's gonna be no surprises when they get there. It's, they, they're gotta be challenged. They're gotta have their, their [00:21:00] lives looked at in a very personal way. And if someone's not prepared for that, rehab can be an absolute nightmare.

Chris Langley: And it all. It probably fails sadly, but, you know, so the work that you do is, is so invaluable and it can just make that process so easy. So much easier than it, than it, than it probably is. So how long does that, how long does that take? Would you say if you, if you refer someone to rehab from the time you've referred them and you've done all that, how, how soon can someone be in rehab?

Dan Tallman: I think the facilities are doing a better job, especially the ones that I mentioned. I would say you could definitely get in within a week or two

Dan Tallman: to go back to funding, right? We, we do have facilities in Iowa, the, the ones that accept Medicaid that typically are full, right? Or get people in as quickly.

Dan Tallman: And so then it may be a matter of getting someone on a wait list. I do think in the last couple years that there's been less of that and people who really need residential services can get in somewhere quicker. I would say 7 to 10 days is pretty typical. [00:22:00] Anymore,

Dan Tallman: even that though, as we know, can be a long time, right?

Dan Tallman: If someone needs residential treatment, they're probably not So if we can get in that day or the day even better. And I do think there are a couple of programs doing it even that

Chris Langley: So what's, what are the sort of cost element for rehab? What, what, what's the normal, what's the kind of average cost? I, I, I, I dunno. So I'd love to know myself sort of what, what, what are clients looking at when they're, when they're preparing to go to rehab.

Chris Langley: I

Dan Tallman: I, I honestly don't know if I can answer that question very well. I think if you have Medicaid and you go to a program that accepts Medicaid, you're probably not pay. If you have commercial insurance and you wanna go to Hazelden or Top of the World Ranch, sometimes there's a copay. Sometimes they have to do it differently where your, your treatment stay is paid for, but the actual, you know, your room and board you have to pay for.

Dan Tallman: And so I, I don't know that I would put a number out there for treatment. Probably better to pass those

Chris Langley: I'd love to do that one day. Maybe I will.

Dan Tallman: Yeah, make some connections

Chris Langley: I'd [00:23:00] love to. No, thank you very much. That, that's that, that'd be absolutely superb. So with, methadone over here in Suboxone. Is that something that, that you are involved in at all and kind of, you know, what are, what are your kind of professional beliefs around that kind of therapy? I,

Dan Tallman: Yeah, I'm hugely in favor of any medications that are gonna help people. Like I said, to go back to kind of what I was saying originally on harm reduction, right? What, to me, that what those substances or those medications are doing is helping people live in a way that they can make some changes around employment, relationships, housing, all those things that I mentioned early on.

Dan Tallman: Right. I, I don't have a prescriber in my practice who's prescribing those medications, but I certainly take people who are on those medications treatment here at Acceptance Recovery. I would love to have a prescriber at some point. To have an MD come in for even a half day a week, I think would be enough to, you know, support my clients this point.

Dan Tallman: I, yeah, like to, [00:24:00] to go back to your question about philosophy, I think that we absolutely need be, need to be embracing any and all treatments that are helping people make the changes that they wanna make.

Chris Langley: Would you, would you say in your experience with clients, would you say methadone's a better thing or Suboxone or, it just kind of depends on the person, I suppose. But my own personal experience working with, with with clients in the UK was suboxone was a big thing and that was a big game changer from methadone to that was.

Chris Langley: The results were phenomenal in comparison with methadone. I, I, I found, anyway, it, but

Dan Tallman: I think off the top of my head, I've only had a couple of clients that I know of that were taking methadone. So I don't know that I have enough a, a comparison there.

Chris Langley: No worries. So how, couple of last questions for you then. How do you advertise your services online?

Chris Langley: What's, what's, how do you, how, how do you, how do people get to know you online? What's the.

Dan Tallman: Yeah, so honestly for several years there I did very little. I had a website, and one of the reasons that I wanted to to [00:25:00] do that is obviously to get the name out there, but also clients are able to go to my website and book an appointment directly on there. I think that that removes a lot of barriers, right?

Dan Tallman: We still get a lot of phone calls of people making appointments that way. But I think for a lot of people who are really experiencing a lot of stigma or a lot of guilt and shame about their substance use, to be able to get online and make that appointment without really much hassle is really important.

Dan Tallman: So people have always been able to do that. On my website, I do have a profile, like I said on Psychology Today. That's a pretty popular therapist directory. I'm just starting as I expand the practice a little bit to do some stuff with social media and there's a blog on the website that I'm trying to put some information out.

Dan Tallman: But really in terms of you know, targeted marketing, I've done very little. I think that speaks to the demand, right? And I, I filled up my caseload in very short order when I opened practice 2020 and really never had to do a ton of marketing. Like I said, I think that speaks to the fact that a lot of people are in need of services who

Dan Tallman: aren't getting them [00:26:00] and hopefully are getting them now more and more.

Chris Langley: comes down to you though, as well. I mean, obviously what you've achieved and where you are at and what you are doing is. You know, it speaks, it speaks a huge amount and you know, obviously you are, you are very, very well known within the area of providing the service that people need. So, no, so, so fair play to you.

Chris Langley: I'm really, I'm really, really, really impressed the, the time that you've done this. It's just incredible. It, it, it really is. So so people could just reach out to you on your, on your websites. Yeah.

Dan Tallman: Yeah. Yes. I, I encourage people to text too. I want, I want there to be as little barrier as possible to people getting with us. So text, call, email right on the website, they can make appointments. We don't get a ton of walk-in traffic, but that's something that I've considered in the last couple months is maybe doing one day of walk-in evaluations.

Dan Tallman: So that's something that I might think about implementing soon, especially bringing on some more

Chris Langley: Okay. So, so the number on your website, people can text you as well? Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:00] That's, that's really, that's really useful to know. No, thank you very much, Dan.. Is there, is there anything else at all that you'd like to tell the people that are checking out this, this first podcast today about yourself or your services?

Chris Langley: Is there anything I've not covered as well?

Dan Tallman: Yeah, I think just that, you know, the bottom line of what I tell clients is that this, this is not something that you're doing wrong, right? It's not something that we need to scold out of you. And, and so really if you are someone who's struggling with substance use, or even more importantly, if you are someone who in your family has a family member who's struggling with substance use, just give that person a hug and, and tell them that you're there for them and try to help them figure out what it is they wanna do and how together you can get there.

Dan Tallman: 'cause I think that that's what needs to happen more and more.

Chris Langley: That's wonderful. That's a great, great way of finishing this podcast and thank you so much for your time. Really, really appreciate it. And we look forward to having you again on the podcast, you know, another time soon. Anyway, thanks very much indeed. Thanks Dan. Thank very much.

Dan Tallman: Thank you.

Chris Langley: Thanks Dan.

Chris Langley: Bye-Bye.

Do, do, do, [00:28:00] do, do.